Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

Albion · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
No, none not one is predestined for life or death! That premise would not even be logical!

Actually, it's profoundly logical. To think the opposite, that we who can't even understand the things of God are going to find him and know him on our own is both unscriptural and illogical.

To think, OTOH, that he, being God, is sovereign and rules all things makes a lot more sense. The main problem with it is that it hurts our feelings to think that we may not be totally in charge of everything. We were raised to have a better self-image than that, weren't we? Sure, and in our minds it bleeds over into the things of God.

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

Albion said:
Actually, it's profoundly logical. To think the opposite, that we who can't even understand the things of God are going to find him and know him on our own is both unscriptural and illogical.

To think, OTOH, that he, being God, is sovereign and rules all things makes a lot more sense. The main problem with it is that it hurts our feelings to think that we may not be totally in charge of everything. We were raised to have a better self-image than that, weren't we? Sure, and in our minds it bleeds over into the things of God.

Again that is a false premise. We are His subjects and sin came in because Adam and Eve CHOSE to be disobedient, they were NOT predestined to do so and so the penalty of DEATH fell on them because they chose to sin.

The same for us of their posterity, we must choose to obey or disobey!
Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
No, none not one is predestined for life or death! That premise would not even be logical!

To understand predestination it is necessary to understand Gods forknowledge. Predestination is born from that forknowledge. No man can come to the Father unless he is drawn. God does not take my free will but he is aware of my will even if I am not. If God draws me to his grace and I refuse it I would go into greater sin and bondage and misery. A God of love does not do this to someone who will not choose him. Which ia not to say that everyone says yes right away when grace is offered. Think jonah it seemed he would rather die than except but God knows the end from before the start. Now lets consider pharaoh and Judas. God only extends himself to one he forknows will not accept him if it is nessesary for the salvation of his elect. With each declaration of the will of God by Moses and Jesus these two men went deeper into darkness to hide from the revealed light. Driving both men to do such evil by their own choice that his salvation was established. In the hypotheticale if either man had submited to Gods will they would have been saved, but God knew before their will would be against him. In short God does not make some evil and then randomly decide to make some good. Instead by his forknowledge he comes to evil men who have no inclination to serve him because he already knows they will turn and submit to his grace. Thus they are predestinated to be changed by his power to the image of his son because within themselves they have no power to perform his will to wich they now agree

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
To understand predestination it is necessary to understand Gods forknowledge. Predestination is born from that forknowledge. No man can come to the Father unless he is drawn. God does not take my free will but he is aware of my will even if I am not. If God draws me to his grace and I refuse it I would go into greater sin and bondage and misery. A God of love does not do this to someone who will not choose him. Which ia not to say that everyone says yes right away when grace is offered. Think jonah it seemed he would rather die than except but God knows the end from before the start. Now lets consider pharaoh and Judas. God only extends himself to one he forknows will not accept him if it is nessesary for the salvation of his elect. With each declaration of the will of God by Moses and Jesus these two men went deeper into darkness to hide from the revealed light. Driving both men to do such evil by their own choice that his salvation was established. In the hypotheticale if either man had submited to Gods will they would have been saved, but God knew before their will would be against him. In short God does not make some evil and then randomly decide to make some good. Instead by his forknowledge he comes to evil men who have no inclination to serve him because he already knows they will turn and submit to his grace. Thus they are predestinated to be changed by his power to the image of his son because within themselves they have no power to perform his will to wich they now agree

While it is for sure that God has perfect foreknowledge of all eternity future but never in the least did He ever program any to death or life.

Yes He knew us from the beginning, the Lambs Book of life before the foundations of the earth proves that. In it our names are either their or blotted, struck out but no doubt that it can still be read.

We can know from our feeble reasoning that if it was all predetermined of Satan and angels and men who would be rebellious He would have taken out the rebellious ones before creation or conception if He wasn't going to let us choose for ourselves.

The one and only reason being then that this reign of sin and rebellion had to play out is for each and every one to choose in absolute freedom their eternal destiny, eternal life or eternal death..

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Albion · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
While it is for sure that God has perfect foreknowledge of all eternity future but never in the least did He ever program any to death or life.

And you know this...how?

Yes He knew us from the beginning

Agreed, but neither of us is talking about foreknowledge in this thread. It doesn't cut one way or the other in the issue we've been discussing.

We can know from our feeble reasoning that if it was all predetermined of Satan and angels and men who would be rebellious He would have taken out the rebellious ones before creation or conception if He wasn't going to let us choose for ourselves.

I think we can also know from our feeble reasoning--and scripture--that we and the angels are not identical.

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Certainly, but how that can be done is a major part of the issue here.

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

Albion said:
And you know this...how?

Agreed, but neither of us is talking about foreknowledge in this thread. It doesn't cut one way or the other in the issue we've been discussing.

I think we can also know from our feeble reasoning--and scripture--that we and the angels are not identical.

Certainly, but how that can be done is a major part of the issue here.

I don't recall how it got into the discussion, I would have to go back and see and it may logical that it has.

Ah, now I remember, it came in the discussion about predestination so it is a valid point in the discussion. Drop it fine as I am not too concerned of this part of the issue.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
While it is for sure that God has perfect foreknowledge of all eternity future but never in the least did He ever program any to death or life.

Yes He knew us from the beginning, the Lambs Book of life before the foundations of the earth proves that. In it our names are either their or blotted, struck out but no doubt that it can still be read.

We can know from our feeble reasoning that if it was all predetermined of Satan and angels and men who would be rebellious He would have taken out the rebellious ones before creation or conception if He wasn't going to let us choose for ourselves.

The one and only reason being then that this reign of sin and rebellion had to play out is for each and every one to choose in absolute freedom their eternal destiny, eternal life or eternal death..

De 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

First I did not say we do not have free will. God created satan and the angles perfect. As to the idea of God taking them out before they sinned this is not possible. For one in the natural a child is human at conception not apon exiting the birth canal. So we rightly judge that abortian is murder. The perfect creation of those who would fall was concieved in the mind of God before spoke. God would not kill them they would chose death.
Second Jesus said he did not come to condem men but to save them. Then he said those who would not believe on him were condemed already. As I said before God does not draw those who will not chose him. God is in no way waiting to see how things play out. There is a set time when all who were in Adam that will accept him will be gathered

Albion · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
I don't recall how it got into the discussion, I would have to go back and see and it may logical that it has.

Ah, now I remember, it came in the discussion about predestination so it is a valid point in the discussion.

It's related to the topic, sure, but it doesn't figure into whether God elects people or not.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Albion said:
And you know this...how?

Agreed, but neither of us is talking about foreknowledge in this thread. It doesn't cut one way or the other in the issue we've been discussing.

I think we can also know from our feeble reasoning--and scripture--that we and the angels are not identical.

Certainly, but how that can be done is a major part of the issue here.

I am sorry. You are correct this was not the point of this thread. However these things are foundational to the topic as I understand it. But again excuse me for going off topic

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
First I did not say we do not have free will. God created satan and the angles perfect. As to the idea of God taking them out before they sinned this is not possible. For one in the natural a child is human at conception not apon exiting the birth canal. So we rightly judge that abortian is murder. The perfect creation of those who would fall was concieved in the mind of God before spoke. God would not kill them they would chose death.
Second Jesus said he did not come to condem men but to save them. Then he said those who would not believe on him were condemed already. As I said before God does not draw those who will not chose him. God is in no way waiting to see how things play out. There is a set time when all who were in Adam that will accept him will be gathered

The post I had made in response was what God probably would have done had He not made man and angels absolutely totally free to choose to be with for and of Him.

And yes the time of Christ's appearing to catch up His from this earth is close indeed!

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Albion said:
It's related to the topic, sure, but it doesn't figure into whether God elects people or not.

The short answer is yes he elects or we make him a liar when he says we are his elect. Still with out understanding of forknowledge election becomes random and does not reflect the love for all men or heartbreak he has for those who are condemed.

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
The short answer is yes he elects or we make him a liar when he says we are his elect. Still with out understanding of forknowledge election becomes random and does not reflect the love for all men or heartbreak he has for those who are condemed.

The main point to consider is, how does one become on of His elect?

Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour

Those that do follow Him become the elect!

Albion · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
I am sorry. You are correct this was not the point of this thread. However these things are foundational to the topic as I understand it. But again excuse me for going off topic

No apologies needed. It's not that it was off-topic, for we all do that at times, but that--being off-topic--it wasn't doing anything for our discussion about election, etc. Everyone agrees that God has foreknowledge, so that doesn't help us decide the issue before us.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
The main point to consider is, how does one become on of His elect?

Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour

Those that do follow Him become the elect!

if being elect is by our own choice than it is not election at all. Can you be an elected official just because you decide to be. No a power greater than you must elect. I understandthat in my example the desire to be elected exist. But what if a child was raised in a room with with no contact with the outside world. He would never have the desire to be elected because there would be no light of that existance but only his room. Hence Jesus said I choose you you did notchoose me

Albion · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
if being elect is by our own choice than it is not election at all.

Correct. The question was either asked without an understanding of the theology involved or else was meant to mock.

Hence Jesus said I choose you you did not choose me

How, I wonder, would the "save yourself by doing good deeds" folks explain that?

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

Albion said:
Correct. The question was either asked without an understanding of the theology involved or else was meant to mock.

How, I wonder, would the "save yourself by doing good deeds" folks explain that?

You will not be elected if you do not run. Many have chosen to not run and none were predestined to run or not to run.

None can be of the elect by just sitting on their lees and saying I believe. The believe is proven by the "pudding", that is the life they live.

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
You will not be elected if you do not run. Many have chosen to not run and none were predestined to run or not to run.

None can be of the elect by just sitting on their lees and saying I believe. The believe is proven by the "pudding", that is the life they live.

There is a differance between being elect and running your race. And yet still...flesh and blood did not reveal this to you and it is of him to will and to do his good pleasure and why do you call me good there is none good but God also this is life that they would know you(knowing is experiancing an event learning is gathering information) and it is no longer I that live but christ in me. None of these things remove my will but as he acts in me I submit my will to his and trust him to perform his will in me. As to there is no predestination...THOSE he forknew he predestined to be transformed.

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

rick357 said:
There is a differance between being elect and running your race. And yet still...flesh and blood did not reveal this to you and it is of him to will and to do his good pleasure and why do you call me good there is none good but God also this is life that they would know you(knowing is experiancing an event learning is gathering information) and it is no longer I that live but christ in me. None of these things remove my will but as he acts in me I submit my will to his and trust him to perform his will in me. As to there is no predestination...THOSE he forknew he predestined to be transformed.

There is no such thing in the Word of God of unconditional election.

It depends upon your course of action as to whether or not you will secure the benefits bestowed upon those who, as the elect of God, receive an eternal life-insurance policy.

He doesn't pass it out unconditionally!

He says "Follow Me", He didn't say you are the elect, go your way and whatever you do will not hurt.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No scripture even states we are predestined to be transformed. Without full and complete repentance we are not subjects for transformation.

When we are transformed then we are of the elected ones

Gibs · Jul 26, 2014

I would add to my above post we are transformed into His likeness and Christ in you is the transformation for when He dwells within us He is the Master in the soul temple unless we put Him out by having self take over and we know we MUST keep self down and crucified!

rick357 · Jul 26, 2014

Gibs said:
There is no such thing in the Word of God of unconditional election.

It depends upon your course of action as to whether or not you will secure the benefits bestowed upon those who, as the elect of God, receive an eternal life-insurance policy.

He doesn't pass it out unconditionally!

He says "Follow Me", He didn't say you are the elect, go your way and whatever you do will not hurt.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No scripture even states we are predestined to be transformed. Without full and complete repentance we are not subjects for transformation.

When we are transformed then we are of the elected ones

Now things become clear election deals with Gods love and knowing who will submit to him also the elect in their actions have come into a process of God working in and through them as he teaches them to submit more completly. Election as taught by scripture is never about live how you want cause you cant be lost. John said some went out from among them showing they were never among us. To believe is not to think a certain thing is true and then ignore it. If I believe then it involves my whole being. IF he is lord than he is master of my thoughts actions motives emotians and all things that are me. Election is an all in thing and if I have held back anything of myself than an all loving jealous God will bring me through whatever it takes to get me straight.

Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

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