Why do some believe?

FrenchyBearpaw · Feb 5, 2013

seeking Christ said:
Got me. I could posit that we both have faith our cars will start next time we put the key in the ignition. In my case that might take more faith because its been awfully cold here, but I bought I big battery this past fall so maybe not.

Is there anything you place more faith in than that?

Yes, I have "faith" that my battery will start the next time I put the key in the ignition.

seeking Christ · Feb 5, 2013

FrenchyBearpaw said:
Yes, I have "faith" that my battery will start the next time I put the key in the ignition.

So if a Christian has more faith in that than God answering our prayers, does that make us an idolater?

FrenchyBearpaw · Feb 5, 2013

seeking Christ said:
So if a Christian has more faith in that than God answering our prayers, does that make us an idolater?

More of a "batolater," I suppose.

brightlights · Feb 5, 2013

quatona said:
What does "faith" mean, in your usage, and what would "questioning your faith" mean when applying this definition?

When the Bible says "faith" I believe it refers to spiritual perception -- in other words, the ability to see God. Some people look at the world and just see the world. Other people look at the world and see God. Some people read the Bible and it's just a book. Other people read the Bible and hear the very words of God. "Faith" is the difference. It is the organ by which God is seen and heard.

"Questioning your faith", by extension, I suppose would mean that we take a thoughtful approach to what we see and hear by faith. We ponder it. We compare it with others who have faith. We entertain alternate explanations and alternate worldviews. We consider what we see and hear with a (constructively) critical mind.

seeking Christ · Feb 5, 2013

brightlights said:
When the Bible says "faith" I believe it refers to spiritual perception -- in other words, the ability to see God.

It is the organ by which God is seen and heard.

"Questioning your faith",

We compare it with others who have faith. We entertain alternate explanations and alternate worldviews. We consider what we see and hear with a (constructively) critical mind.

I like it!

madaz · Feb 5, 2013

I don't have any faith that my battery will start my car, I haven't started my car since Oct 2011 and the battery was almost dead back then.

seeking Christ · Feb 5, 2013

^ ^ A reasonable faith then

madaz · Feb 5, 2013

brightlights said:
Why do you say this?

Because strong theism by definition means 100% certainty in the existence of god(s).

Dave Ellis · Feb 5, 2013

seeking Christ said:
^ ^ A reasonable faith then

Actually, his position is based on evidence

lol

madaz · Feb 5, 2013

Dave Ellis said:
Actually, his position is based on evidence

lol

I must admit, I had no faith that my car would start in Oct 2011 either, but it did.

Eudaimonist · Feb 5, 2013

brightlights said:
There are plenty of thoughtful atheists and plenty of thoughtful Christians.

Even if there are thoughtful Christians, I think that this is the main difference.

I don't think that you can pin down the difference to any one, single factor. There are going to be several, and much will depend on just where one's thoughts go.

Thoughtfulness turns theists into atheists. Not reliably. Not all of the time. But that is a major factor.

Not all atheists are produced by thoughtfulness. Some people are simply raised without any encouragement to believe in deities. They could be very unthoughtful, and still be atheists.

And, I will accept the word of Christians here that believing theists can be thoughtful people. These are perhaps atheists waiting to happen, but there is never any guarantee.

So, the idea that there is only one difference that divides theists and atheists is a fool's quest, IMJ.

My position is that the difference is emotional. Believers want to believe and non-believers do not want to believe.

That is certainly wrong.

I never did become an atheist because I didn't want to believe. It wasn't a matter of desire, but of what was convincing or not. Theism had failed to convince me and retain its foothold in my belief structure. Once it was gone, it was gone. Desire was irrelevant throughout the process.

There was never any choice in the matter except to think about the issues, or not to think about them. I chose to think. Atheism was perhaps not a guaranteed result, but it was the result, and it happened without any specific choice or desire to become an atheist. I was actually quite happy with the Catholicism that I had believed in at the time.

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · Feb 6, 2013

brightlights said:
When the Bible says "faith" I believe it refers to spiritual perception -- in other words, the ability to see God. Some people look at the world and just see the world. Other people look at the world and see God. Some people read the Bible and it's just a book. Other people read the Bible and hear the very words of God. "Faith" is the difference. It is the organ by which God is seen and heard.

"Questioning your faith", by extension, I suppose would mean that we take a thoughtful approach to what we see and hear by faith. We ponder it. We compare it with others who have faith. We entertain alternate explanations and alternate worldviews. We consider what we see and hear with a (constructively) critical mind.

Please describe in more detail what you are doing in order to verify/falsify that such an organ exists and that it is a reliable tool for discerning reality.
Just to make sure you don´t have mere faith that faith is an organ and a reliable organ, at that, i.e. just to make sure I am not exposed to an argument that´s ultimately circular.

seeking Christ · Feb 6, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
Thoughtfulness turns theists into atheists. Not reliably. Not all of the time. But that is a major factor.

Not all atheists are produced by thoughtfulness. Some people are simply raised without any encouragement to believe in deities. They could be very unthoughtful, and still be atheists.

And, I will accept the word of Christians here that believing theists can be thoughtful people. These are perhaps atheists waiting to happen, but there is never any guarantee.

And yet the opposite also happens; atheists turn to Jesus Christ via thoughtfulness. Sometimes during, and as a direct result of, scientific study and discovery.

Whatever the difference is here, why people can have exactly opposite reactions in this way to exactly identical stimuli, interests me. I make no pretense of understanding it presently.

Dave Ellis · Feb 6, 2013

seeking Christ said:
And yet the opposite also happens; atheists turn to Jesus Christ via thoughtfulness. Sometimes during, and as a direct result of, scientific study and discovery.

Whatever the difference is here, why people can have exactly opposite reactions in this way to exactly identical stimuli, interests me. I make no pretense of understanding it presently.

Can you give me an example of any scientific study or discovery that points to Jesus?

madaz · Feb 7, 2013

seeking Christ said:
And yet the opposite also happens; atheists turn to Jesus Christ via thoughtfulness. Sometimes during, and as a direct result of, scientific study and discovery.

Please explain how an atheist can turn to jesus christ as a direct result of, scientific study and discovery?

crimsonleaf · Feb 7, 2013

Madaz, have you ever seriously thought through your signature?

A theist only has to believe in one God to be 100% theist; we don't have to believe in them all. I mention this because whenever I see this or similar quotes it seems to show the one using it in a bad light, as if they haven't quite grasped the facts or understood what "theist" means.

The best that can be said is that we're "99.9% other-god-rejectors", or better still, don't bother.

seeking Christ · Feb 7, 2013

madaz said:
Please explain how an atheist can turn to jesus christ as a direct result of, scientific study and discovery?

Is this difficult? You don't believe in God, study science, discover you are doing nothing other than examining God, and begin pursuing that line of thought to realize it is true.

Eudaimonist · Feb 7, 2013

seeking Christ said:
Is this difficult? You don't believe in God, study science, discover you are doing nothing other than examining God, and begin pursuing that line of thought to realize it is true.

Huh?

How would one "discover" that?

eudaimonia,

Mark

seeking Christ · Feb 7, 2013

I still don't see how or why this is difficult; scientists have been doing that for 100's of years.

Eudaimonist · Feb 7, 2013

seeking Christ said:
I still don't see how or why this is difficult; scientists have been doing that for 100's of years.

Have they?

I realize that some scientists are theists, but which scientists that went from atheist to theist due to scientific research do you have in mind?

eudaimonia,

Mark

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