Why do people have to suffer to die?

[Nantzie]

I'm not coming to this question out of anger or an it's-not-fair attitude, but more of curiosity about what conclusions other Christians have come to.

My mother died of breast cancer 11 years ago almost exactly. My dad is just days away from his own passing by stomach cancer. I became a Christian this year and have a much different attitude this time, so I'm grateful for that.

I've come to a feeling of acceptance about my father dying. And I'm even almost okay with the concept of him moving from this life into the next. But what I don't understand is why it has to hurt to move from life to death. No matter how someone dies, it almost always involves something painful, no matter how instantaneous. Is there a reason why that is?

Wouldn't it seem more logical that death would be some kind of poof or flash of light and then all of a sudden you were gone? I'm sure the people left behind would still grieve the loss, but wouldn't it serve the same purpose of moving from life to death?

I was thinking that maybe it was the animalistic part of humans that dies, and God doesn't have any control over that part. But then I realized (duh!!) that He CREATED us, so that couldn't be it. But then I wonder if when He said that He created us, does that mean us as a species too (our physical bodies as well as our souls), or the us that we feel is REALLY us (our souls and not our bodies?) You can see how I've gotten myself in a twist over this...

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Nancy

 

[Sketcher]

I suppose if Adam and Eve had never sinned, what you suggested would probably be what God would use to maintain population on Earth. But as it is, we live in a cursed place with death and pain. God obviously didn't hold your parent's sins against them if they were saved, but even the best of us have to die. I'm sorry to hear of your losses and will pray for you right now.

 

[Lyle]

Romans 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[carmi]

But what I don't understand is why it has to hurt to move from life to death. No matter how someone dies, it almost always involves something painful, no matter how instantaneous. Is there a reason why that is?

Wouldn't it seem more logical that death would be some kind of poof or flash of light and then all of a sudden you were gone? I'm sure the people left behind would still grieve the loss, but wouldn't it serve the same purpose of moving from life to death?

Birth is painful as well. I have never given birth but from what I have heard there is no "poof" or flash of of light and then all of a sudden the baby is there.

Jesus Christ, hours before His own excruciating death, makes a reference to a woman giving birth. There are many interpretations and explanations why He said that. One thing I do know, He said that on purpose, He did not waste time or words on anything.

 

[Endure2]

becuase we are in this flesh, and this world is under a curse from the time of adam and eve.

and while we are of God, we have to walk through this cursed world, it causes pain.

though not everything that happens is Gods will either, just becuase someone has cancer doesnt mean God accepted that for them or that it was supposed to be that way or has to stay that way.
God can heal cancer, and he wants to.

death doesnt have to be a painful struggle, paul knew he had finished his coarse and run his race, and he look unto his passing on with contentment.

the bible says you can die before your time...

that means that just becuase a person is dying, doesnt mean thats how God wanted it to be, and the way people die, doesnt mean thats how God wanted it to be...
alot of things happen, that breaks Gods heart as much as ours, but without prayer and faith and the believer taking a stand on earth God cant do what hed like to do for people.

God never wanted or intended 9-11 to happen.

 

[Nantzie]

Wow! Thanks for all the thoughts. That all makes a lot of sense to me. If anyone has any more thoughts, please keep them coming.

I especially clicked with the concepts of free will, suffering leading to good, and the curse we still live with from Adam and Eve. This makes things a little clearer for me.

I know for sure that if my mom had lived I never would have left the abusive relationship I was in before I met my husband. My mom was SO nonconfrontational. My stepmom, on the other hand, is just the opposite. I learned how to stand up for myself from her. If my mom had never died, I never would have met my stepmom.

So now, even though I don't like that my mom died, I understand that it was part of His plan and ultimately a good thing in the overall scheme of things.

I know that my dad dying will ultimately bring about the same realization at some point.

Thank you all so much for telling me about all of this. It does make it easier.

Nancy

 

[Nantzie]

Okay, so I've been thinking about the free will aspect of this. Tell me if this makes sense...

In my dad's life, his mom and dad divorced (free will)... his mom still won't tell him why or anything at all about his father... he only knows his name (free will). His mom and stepdad treated him terribly when he was growing up (free will). A few years go his stepdad ended up apologizing and making amends for how he treated my dad as a child (free will), but his mom is still not budging (free will).

This part of my dad's life is one of many things that make up my dad's emotional an mental development that created the man he is today. There are other situations that created his illness, which are also free will from a much more distant aspect. (There is a lot of evidence of Agent Orange causing stomach cancer, as well as other cancers. My dad said that he drank water from streams where the Agent Orange was still dripping from the folliage. shudder...) All of that has to do with free will of all the people who brought that particular situation for my dad about.

So my dad getting cancer that can (theoretically) be traced back to his exposure and ingestion of Agent Orange isn't something that God did but the combined free will of hundreds of people. And my father's bad childhood can probably be traced back through the generations of the free will of how people treated their children. (I know that as a child my grandmother (who always treated all her children badly) was made to sleep out on a screened in porch. All year long. In Idaho. While her little half-sisters slept inside in the warmth. Breaks your heart.)

So I still don't get why cancer or abuse exists in the first place, but I get how it's not God "doing" it to "get" something out of us. It just happens and He is there with open arms to help us if we ask.

Am I on the right track?

Thanks,

Nancy

 

[carmi]

So I still don't get why cancer or abuse exists in the first place, but I get how it's not God "doing" it to "get" something out of us. It just happens and He is there with open arms to help us if we ask.

Am I on the right track?

Human beings are individuals. Many of us may have the same problems and sufferings but the reason, circumstances could be totally different.

I personally don't believe that suffering or difficulties are punishments sent by God or that God does not answer prayers for help and healing and taking away the pain because we were disobedient, unfaithful etc.

God is allowing it ("it" referring to anything we or our loved ones have to deal with). I am not sure whether I am on the right track but I am thinking of Lazarus. The Lord Jesus Christ loved Lazarus, and yet He tarried and He did not heal Lazarus like He healed others (I am horrible with remembering the exact Bible passages but I do know there is a passage where He tells someone to go back home because the person is already healed).

Jesus cared for Lazarus' sisters just as much as He cared for Lazarus himself and He knew that they were both sorrowful. And He did not just heal Lazarus, Jesus did much more, He performed a great miracle. He showed His power of resurrection.

 

[The Midge]

Okay, so I've been thinking about the free will aspect of this. Tell me if this makes sense...

In my dad's life, his mom and dad divorced (free will)... his mom still won't tell him why or anything at all about his father... he only knows his name (free will). His mom and stepdad treated him terribly when he was growing up (free will). A few years go his stepdad ended up apologizing and making amends for how he treated my dad as a child (free will), but his mom is still not budging (free will).

This part of my dad's life is one of many things that make up my dad's emotional an mental development that created the man he is today. There are other situations that created his illness, which are also free will from a much more distant aspect. (There is a lot of evidence of Agent Orange causing stomach cancer, as well as other cancers. My dad said that he drank water from streams where the Agent Orange was still dripping from the folliage. shudder...) All of that has to do with free will of all the people who brought that particular situation for my dad about.

So my dad getting cancer that can (theoretically) be traced back to his exposure and ingestion of Agent Orange isn't something that God did but the combined free will of hundreds of people. And my father's bad childhood can probably be traced back through the generations of the free will of how people treated their children. (I know that as a child my grandmother (who always treated all her children badly) was made to sleep out on a screened in porch. All year long. In Idaho. While her little half-sisters slept inside in the warmth. Breaks your heart.)

So I still don't get why cancer or abuse exists in the first place, but I get how it's not God "doing" it to "get" something out of us. It just happens and He is there with open arms to help us if we ask.

Am I on the right track?

Thanks,

Nancy

Hi Nancy

I think you are. The trail goes all the way back to the garden of Eden. Notice the curse: God did not say "I am going to curse you for what you" did but "You are cursed for what you did. God warned that death (and as we know there are many kinds and causes of death would result from disobedience, the curse was God telling Adam and Eve this would be their expereince from now on as a result of going against Him.

Then notice through the remainder of the first section in Genesis (1-11) how each generation invents new ways of being evil and gets worse and worse (with a few notable exceptions) until Noah when God iintervenes with a drastic solution. The flood is not just about God doing away with evil but it also shows that if God chose to simply deal with sin by wiping it out there would be none of us left. Hence the need for the crucifiction.

The best book I have read on the the issue of suffering is CS Lewis's The Problem with Pain. His core thesis is that pain is a mesage from creation that tells us all is not well. It is interwoven with free will and the design of creation. Free will to sin would not exist without the free will for us to cause pain to others. If were were incapable of feeling pain we would cease to be fully human nor have a moral free will. Lewis also points out God's solution to suffering was through His sons suffering. It is an excelent, if not an entirely easy read.

 

[vinc]

Nancy, i am sorry to hear about your Parents demise. May the Lord be your help and strength at this time and in the future too.

Death is the curse of God which came to all human beings through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Death is painful to some and to some it is not painful at all. Death was not God's will when He created Adam and Eve. It came only after Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Similarly, a woman experiences birth-pains before delivering a child into this world. This is also a curse of God which came to Eve (and all woman thru Eve) after God came to know that Eve was the first to disobey God and persuade Adam also to eat the forbidden fruit thus disobeying God. Now, it was not totally Adam and Eve's mistake too. It was the Devil which cleverly fooled them. So, the Devil was also cursed by God.

The human body is mortal and dies after a certain age but the Soul (or Spirit) does not die. It enters into the Spiritual World. There are Angels (our relatives) who come to conduct our soul to heaven. If we do not love God or do not believe in Lord Jesus Christ, then, if we are fortunate, a chance will be given to us to accept Lord Jesus Christ and enter heaven. Else there would also be evil spirits waiting to take away our Spirit to their abode (I read this part from a Man of God who got visions of the Spiritual World and saw all these things). Our Spirit needs to be reconciled with God and needs to go to God to live with Him forever because it is God who has created us and breathed life into us and planted in us an Eternal Spirit.

For some people death comes so suddenly that they won't even know that they died and now are in the Spiritual World.

Some of us do get glimpses of the Spiritual World now and then in our life on earth itself. This is when God opens our Spiritual eyes to see the Spiritual World.

Finally, i would like to say that God is not to be blamed for what has happened and is happening in the world today. Humans are bearing the consequences of their own wrong decision-makings (especially decisions made against the will of God). God has been in the process and always in the process of saving mankind until now. He may not save us from bodily death owing to the words He has spoken against Adam and Eve (and all humans). But, He wants us to save from a Second Death which is the death of the Spirit. This can happen if we live a life against God and have never sought after God or never believed Lord Jesus Christ (His Son).

As a christian you would be knowing most of what i said. But, still i hope this would be of some encouragement to you.

 

[StarSapphire]

I have seen good people suffer a lot before they passed on. Also, I have seen some very bad people pass away in their sleep, suddenly, with no suffering, or knowing they were going to pass away in advance....just *pufff* they were out of here. The only thing I figure is the bad people, with God knowing they would never repent, just let them die quickly, without forewarning, or ability to think about it. The others, perhaps there was something they needed to repent of before passing...that God wanted them to admit. Like a warning.

Well, there was one terrified lady in the hospital where my grandmother passed. My grandmother passed fairly peacefully after that. But there was an elderly woman who was moaning and groaning terribly in the room across the hall. I will never forget that sound, and it was as though she was she was seeing the flames of hell, the way she was expressing what she was seeing. She was at least partially in a coma. It was terrible, and haunts me to this day. I don't know if I could have reached her, but it is unforgetable.

 

[Rafael]

I think of the pain the Lord had to endure for us as a race in order to secure for us a way and eternal life - Jesus. He suffered like no man has ever suffered. We share in that pain too. This is a world of sin and death. God will wipe away all the tears of His beloved and there will never be pain again.

 

[Nantzie]

This has turned into a great thread. You've all given me so much to think about and take comfort in. I also wanted to let you know that my Dad passed away right after midnight on December 26th. It was only when I told him that Christmas was over and he didn't have to fight anymore that he stopped breathing. He went into a coma early on Christmas Eve. From early evening on Christmas Day, he was fighting for every breath. When I got there at 9:30pm I didn't want him to suffer anymore and I didn't want him to try anymore. It was okay. But then there was this tiny part of me that knew that more than anything he wanted to get past Christmas, and I was pulling for him so hard. I knew he was waiting for me to tell him that Christmas was over and he could go. It got really hard for him, and a few minutes before midnight I almost lied to him and told him Christmas was over so he could go on. But I knew he would know I had given up and he would have hated that. So I waited until all of the clocks in the room said it was past midnight, and then I told him that he did it. He made it past Christmas and he didn't have to fight anymore and he could go on. He took just a few more breaths, and a couple minutes later his heart stopped and he was gone. I will never doubt God's grace and mercy again. I know that God loves my dad and let him do this for us. So we wouldn't have to remember Christmas as a sad day. For the rest of my life, I will love Christmas because I witnessed such a beautiful gesture of love from God, through my Dad.

In the last several months since my dad's diagnosis in June, I have prayed the big prayer of him being healed of cancer. But I have prayed a thousand small prayers. The big prayer got answered with a no, but EVERY single one of the small prayers were answered with a yes. I'm serious. Every single one. I don't know why God has been so kind to us by so diligently showing us that he hears our prayers and agrees to every single one that He is able to. I feel like it was important to God that my family and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He loves us and hears us.

I will never doubt God's love for me again.

Thank you all so much. I love this thread. If anyone else has thoughts, please keep it going. It's so helpful for me, and I'm sure it is for other people.

Nancy