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Why do Evolutionists discriminate against Neandertals?

supersport

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Why are evolutionists obsessed with lumping people in groups? Why do they insist that Neandertals are less human than they are?

Regardless of the fact that Neandertals and Homo erectus -- both fully human -- lived alongside homo sapiens, Evolutionists claim that both these groups of peole were somehow “subhuman.” So now, not only are fetuses sub-human -- and not up to their standards -- but so are our ancestors.

But see, here's one of evolutionists' tricks ---- they love to emphasize the postive characteristics of apes, yet at the same time they ridicule and downplay the Neandertal and Homo erectus. They play this mind game so they can sub-consciously level the mental playing field and soften people up to the notion that humans and apes are actually closer than they are. It’s nothing but a racist snowjob of picking and choosing who they build up or tear down – based on their political agenda. Unlike evolutionists, though, God is not a racist.


http://www.paleontologiaumana.it/nariokotome2.jpg (homo erectus skeleton)


Physical Traits of Neandertals and Homo Erectus:

We’ve already learned the power of plasticity and adaptivity. It can shape and mold an organism from the moment of conception. Also traits are able to be formed during development that will aid in the functionality of life on the outside. I’ve given numerous examples of plasticity….one is that tadpoles can develop into a large-headed or small-headed morph depending on diet early on in life. Snakes do the same thing -- as, no doubt, does every other creature on earth.

I submit, of course, that Neandertals and Homo erectus are no different. First, it is known that these individuals had very similar physical features...in fact, other than brain size they were almost identical. This might be why the early African Homo sapien fossils have been referred to as “African Neandertals”….while many of the Asian homo erectus fossils have been called “Asian Neandertals.” And in many cases it’s difficult to tell the difference between Neandertals and Erectus fossils.

But both groups were no-doubt hunters. Thus, their bodies were shaped for the purpose of living in a harsh environment and for fighting and overpowering their dinner. This required strong bones and a solid body mass. Interestingly the area of the brain that determines these motor functions is – you guessed it -- in the frontal lobe…. the cerebellum. This area was probably enlarged as a result of necessity to cope with their current situation. It has nothing to with being “subhuman." It has nothing to do with being blood-thirsty savages who carried their wives by their hair either. If anything, it proves the inner intelligence, majesty, and design of the human body.

In addition, these people no doubt used their teeth as tools of sorts – as cutting and clamping devices…thus their teeth and jaw structures were merely transformed by their dietary habits. It would be no different than when I was 8 years old and learned how to play the guitar: God made my fingers adaptive and soon they developed callouses, which allowed me to play without drawing blood – these callouses still remain today.

In addition, we’ve learned that Neandertals most certainly had rickets. This was a consquence of a Vitamin D definciency. Of course, we have learned that Vitamin D deficiency often results from having dark skin and being placed into a situation where there is less sunlight. My hypothesis is that Neandertals are the same people as the Homo erectus (both of which, no doubt, had dark skin)….and then Neandertals merely migrated northward – which, because of their extended distance from the equator and the occurrence of the Ice Age, resulted in a cooler, less-sunny climate than their dark skin was adapted for in Africa. In addition, these people most certainly consumed much meat, which possibly supplemented the body with an overload of Vitamin A. Vitamin A overload has been shown to interfere with Vitamin D production. Thus: a Vitamin D deficiency soon resulted among Neandertal individuals, which ultimately altered their bone structures:

Vitamin-D deficiency rickets, a disorder that becomes apparent during infancy or childhood, is the result of insufficient amounts of vitamin D in the body. The vitamin deficiency may be caused by poor nutrition, a lack of exposure to the sun, or malabsorption syndromes in which the intestines do not adequately absorb nutrients from foods. Vitamin D is needed for the metabolism of calcium and phosphorus in the body, which, in turn affects how calcium is deposited in the bones; thus it is considered essential for proper bone development and growth. Major symptoms of vitamin D deficiency rickets include bone disease, restlessness, and slow growth. This disorder is rare in the United States but is not uncommon in certain areas of the world.

http://www.webmd.com/hw/diet_and_nutrition/nord883.asp

(Interestingly it’s been shown that almost every Neandertal child studied had rickets)


My assertion, thus, is that Neandertals -- who were essentially the same individuals as Homo erectus – at some point migrated out of Africa, took up residence in Europe, and developed rickets as result of a dramatic climate change. Over the generations, through isolation and possibly some nonrandom genetic mutations cued by the environment, Neandertals became their own “race” of people. And that’s all they were: People….and this is proven by the fact that their bones were found in the same cave in Germany as “modern human” bones – both of which, date at 40-44,000 years ago. (evolutionists’ time clock). And it’s also proven by their large array of artifacts....that they used fire...and that they buried their dead.

And here’s something important. What you have to remember is that Neandertals and Homo Erectus, lived in the same general geological environment as apes. Thus, since it is a biological fact that humans share many similar physical characteristics with apes, it’s logical to assume that the same environmental cues could have elicited the same types of physiological changes in both organisms. This hypothesis is backed up by Peter Borger, who is insistent that nonrandom mutations account for genetic similarities between primates and humans.

http://www.iscid.org/papers/Borger_SharedMutations_061506.pdf

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]Conclusions (from the Borger Paper)[/FONT]


The presented examples challenge the idea that alignment of mutations is compelling
evidence of common descent at the molecular level. Rather, shared mutations may be the
result of common mechanisms. Up to 50 percent of all mutations of homologous DNA
sequences of distinct species may line up due to such mechanisms and create a genetic
mirage – the illusion of common descent. How these mechanisms operate is not yet

understood, but the elucidation poses an excellent challenge for the scientific community
concerned with alignment of mutations. In the meantime, the principle of Occam’s razor
– also known as the [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]principle of parsimony [/FONT]– dictates that scientific explanations must be
simple; they should not contain unnecessary assumptions. The simplest explanation for
shared mutations between humans and the great apes is not common descent, but rather a
common mechanism that introduced the mutations on the same spot in the DNA
sequence.

Why must evolutionists discriminate based on physical characteristics? Why do they assume people from Africa (who were most certainly dark-skinned) were somehow less than human?



 

notto

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Evolutionists claim that both these groups of peole were somehow “subhuman.”

Where is the term or any connotation of 'subhuman' used in describing them? Where are they ridiculed or played down?

Making stuff up doesn't support your case and lowers your credibility (if that is indeed possible anymore).

Now, as far as the rest of your claims,

Why didn't neandertals adapt using their super plasticity or their invisible source of adaptation that is hidden from the view of science?

The claim of an entire population with rickets that eventually died out doesn't exactly support your claims and instead would seem to be evidence against it.

Can you provide a reference to 3 neandertal children that had rickets? You kind of threw that one out there without any support whatsoever. You have read the material yourself that shows this, right?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_neands.html#diseases
  • Rickets does not produce a Neandertal, or Homo erectus morphology; it is clear from many sources (Reader 1981; Tattersall 1995) that the original Neandertal skeleton was unlike any previously known, even in a century in which rickets was a common disease.
  • Evidence of rickets is easily detectable, especially on the growing ends of the long bones of the body. Radiology courses routinely teach the symptoms. It has never (so far as I know) been detected in Neandertals or Homo erectus.
  • Even Virchow did not claim rickets as a sole cause. Virchow in 1872 decided that the first Neandertal Man fossil had had rickets in childhood, head injuries in middle age, and chronic arthritis in old age. A whole population of such people strains credibility, to say the least, although Lubenow says that this diagnosis "is as valid today as when [Virchow] first made it".
  • The long bones of Neandertals, like those of rickets victims, are often more curved than normal, but rickets causes a sideways curvature of the femur, while Neandertal femurs curve backwards (Klein 1989).
 
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supersport

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http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/nanderman.pdf#search='neanderthal%20children%20had %20rickets'

Virchowhad reported that theNeanderthal’s ape-like appearancewas due to a condition knownas rickets, which is a vitamin-D deficiency characterized by overproduction(and deficient calcification) of bone tissue.Thedisease causes skeletal deformities, enlargement of the liver and spleen, and generalized tenderness throughout the body.Dr. Cave noted that every Neanderthal child’sskull that had been studied up to that point in time apparently was affected by severe rickets.Whenrickets occurs in children, it commonly produces a large head due to late closure of the epiphysis and fontanels.

Debating evolutionists is like taking candy from a baby.

By the way.....Your "all the Neandertals died out" is nothing but an unsupported strawman.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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before we look at the big issues discussed in the OP. let's look at a few accessible claims:

Vitamin A overload has been shown to interfere with Vitamin D production.

where?

n addition, we’ve learned that Neandertals most certainly had rickets.

as was pointed out in #2, nope.

Regardless of the fact that Neandertals and Homo erectus -- both fully human -- lived alongside homo sapiens,

is this true? Neandertals and H. erectus together in Europe?
or all 3 species together?

several places including:
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/origins/hominid_journey/neandertal.html
seem to imply that homo erectus is the ancestor of both homo sapiens and homo neandertals. with no evidence of populations of erectus coexisting with either other species.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Evolutionists claim that both these groups of peole were somehow “subhuman.”


Who is saying this, when did they say it, and what precisely are they saying?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 
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supersport

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[/color][/size][/color][/size]

Who is saying this, when did they say it, and what precisely are they saying?


eudaimonia,

Mark



Are you kidding? Science has been portraying Neandertals as stupid brutes for over a century. Many scientists still call homo erectus apes.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Are you kidding? Science has been portraying Neandertals as stupid brutes for over a century. Many scientists still call homo erectus apes.

could you reference a paper on this so i can read what you mean? afaik scientific papers seldom if ever use loaded emotional terms like "stupid brutes" or even "subhuman" for that matter. they strive for dispassionate and 3rd person style of speaking, not emotionally provocative ones.

it would be useful to have a paper as a starting point to see exactly the kind of language you describe being used.
 
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notto

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.Dr. Cave noted that every Neanderthal child’sskull that had been studied up to that point in time apparently was affected by severe rickets.

This was 50 years ago. Doesn't really support your conclusion because more neandertals have been found since that time than were found until that time.

Care to try to take that candy again? You swung and missed.

And just for interest:

No competent morphologist could confuse the frontal bossing of the congenitally syphilitic cranium with the distinctive configuration of the Neandertal skull. Neandertal was a morphologically distinct type of rational human being, which appeared and disappeared when and why, we know not. - Dr. Cave.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Are you kidding? Science has been portraying Neandertals as stupid brutes for over a century. Many scientists still call homo erectus apes.
You should try telling the truth for once. Good for the soul, and all that.
 
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supersport

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This was 50 years ago. Doesn't really support your conclusion because more neandertals have been found since that time than were found until that time.

Care to try to take that candy again? You swung and missed.

And just for interest:

No competent morphologist could confuse the frontal bossing of the congenitally syphilitic cranium with the distinctive configuration of the Neandertal skull. Neandertal was a morphologically distinct type of rational human being, which appeared and disappeared when and why, we know not. - Dr. Cave.

hey...I don't have to listen to any atheists' words....all you have to do is agree that Neandertals were hunters and thus ate lots of meat -- which has lots of vitamin A -- and they also did not get much sunlight since they lived in a cool/cold climate.....and thus their bones were dysfigured:


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1392142

It's called common sense -- you ought to learn how to use it someday.
 
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G

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Why are evolutionists obsessed with lumping people in groups? Why do they insist that Neandertals are less human than they are?

Because genetic tests showed neanderthal DNA was far too different from homo sapien DNA to be considered the same species. They are a cousin of homo sapiens but not a direct ancestor and not the same species.

Case closed.
 
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notto

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hey...I don't have to listen to any atheists' words....all you have to do is agree that Neandertals were hunters and thus ate lots of meat -- which has lots of vitamin A -- and they also did not get much sunlight since they lived in a cool/cold climate.....and thus their bones were dysfigured:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1392142

It's called common sense -- you ought to learn how to use it someday.

Hunters who did not get a lot of sunlight? You call this common sense? Hunters with disfigured bones who's habits required "strong bones and a solid body mass" by your own words? Again, where is the common sense?

You contradict yourself.

Why didn't they adapt? :D You claim that their jaw adapted yet they had disfigured bones. You can't even keep your own claims internally consistent.

So we have neandertals were simply like any other human, except that they weren't and their skeletal structure was different. They were strong boned and had solid body mass except they didn't because they had soft and disfigured bones due to overdoses of vitamin A.

Common sense says that you are making stuff up as you go along.

Why is it that the only thing that seems consistent in creationist arguments is their lack of internal consistency.
 
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Baggins

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Whoopee a supersport spanking again.

It's made my day.

You'd have thought that a man who'd read all those books on evolution, including works by Eldridge and Mayr cover to cover, would have realise that we not only call H. erectus apes, we call H. sapiens apes as well.

He must have forgotten those bits which would be in all those evolutionary texts that he has read.

What a forgetful chap!
 
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Garnett

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Hunters who did not get a lot of sunlight? You call this common sense? Hunters with disfigured bones who's habits required "strong bones and a solid body mass" by your own words? Again, where is the common sense?

You contradict yourself.

Why didn't they adapt? :D You claim that their jaw adapted yet they had disfigured bones. You can't even keep your own claims internally consistent.

So we have neandertals were simply like any other human, except that they weren't and their skeletal structure was different. They were strong boned and had solid body mass except they didn't because they had soft and disfigured bones due to overdoses of vitamin A.

Common sense says that you are making stuff up as you go along.

Why is it that the only thing that seems consistent in creationist arguments is their lack of internal consistency.

Well done. Highlighted not only the paucity of Supersport's argument, but also the hypocricsy of his comments about common sense. Isn't there something in that book some people hold so dear about removing "the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye"?
 
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supersport

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Hunters who did not get a lot of sunlight? You call this common sense? Hunters with disfigured bones who's habits required "strong bones and a solid body mass" by your own words? Again, where is the common sense?

You contradict yourself.

Why didn't they adapt? :D You claim that their jaw adapted yet they had disfigured bones. You can't even keep your own claims internally consistent.

So we have neandertals were simply like any other human, except that they weren't and their skeletal structure was different. They were strong boned and had solid body mass except they didn't because they had soft and disfigured bones due to overdoses of vitamin A.

Common sense says that you are making stuff up as you go along.

Why is it that the only thing that seems consistent in creationist arguments is their lack of internal consistency.

hey genius....neandertals lived at the end of the last ice age 11,000 years ago -- their body figures PROVES that they lived in a very cold climate....ie...short, dense bones. Had they lived in a sunny, hot climate their body-styles would have been completely different. That's why homo erectus in Africa is taller than neandertals to the north -- it's all about climate.
 
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