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Why do creationists redefine and/or make up words out-of-context?

Clint Edwards

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How is stating "I don't know", when you don't know, a truly sad thing?

If something is currently unverifiable, wouldn't one honestly say they didn't know?

(I haven't seen any anger in this discussion.)
If one uses " I don't know" as an excuse to not explore and consider other possible explanations for what you don't know, then it is sad.

As an example, there are a number of propositions of why the universe is, BB, open/closed universe, steady state, brane. If someone who alleges they are curious and objective is asked why is there is a universe , what idea's about have you considered, and their response is "I don't know" and "none", it is sad.
 
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Brightmoon

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Stating Goddidit as the answer to a scientific inquiry is a science stopper.
 
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Non sequitur

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Nice strawman.

Nobody on the other side of your fence has not explored nor not considered other possible explanations. They just came to a conclusion you don't like. That's all it is.
 
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Clint Edwards

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Biochemical reactions take place, and the cell functions, indisputable.

However, the context for me has always been for me in this conversation, the alleged precursor organism of abiogenesis.

Life as we know is based upon DNA , having complicated encoded information that is transcribed, and through chemical reactions directs the function of the cell.

The question I have asked, is where did the complicated information, and the ability to transcribe it come from for that very first organism ?

If one takes a little time to learn about the information encoded in the two strands of DNA, how it is transcribed by the cell so the cell can function it is quite amazing process.

It is also precise, precise in that its very detailed encoded information is made to control a whole host of very complicated chemical reactions so the cell survives.

The alleged precursor organism would have to have information and a way to "read" it to live and reproduce.

People get really hung up on the word information, because it seemingly is hostile to the cherished blind random chemical reaction narrative.

But there it is. The operation of a cell may be blind, it may be based on chemical reactions, but it isn't random, and it is based upon complicated information passed on to it at it';s creation.

So, the alleged precursor organism created by blind random forces would have from the start had to have information and a way to apply it to function,
survive.

Blind chemical reaction, sure. Uncontrolled, chaotic blind chemical reaction, no. The chaos is controlled by information used by the organism.

In that alleged very first organism, that functioned and reproduced, by using some form of information that it "read", utilized properly in it's function, had to come from somewhere.

A simple question. Wood chippers and piles of wood chips are great, but they don't address the issue.

Whether the process is blind and random is irrelevant, blind and random forces somehow created complicated information before life existed, or at exactly the same moment life popped into existence, with a way to process it in place, how ?
 
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Speedwell

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People get really hung up on the word information, because it seemingly is hostile to the cherished blind random chemical reaction narrative.
LOL! Only because the term is so frequently misused by creationists. To be sure, it's become something of a knee-jerk reaction whenever a creationist starts talking about information. I pity the poor creationist who gets it right (if there ever is one) he'll have a hard time getting a hearing.

You haven't defined "life" for the purpose of making your point, but I think it unlikely that life "popped." There is unlikely to be a hard line, a qualitative distinction, between "non-living" complex biochemistry and a "living" simple proto-cell. But in any case, the information it contained would have been brought to it by the biochemicals out of which it formed.
 
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DogmaHunter

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If one uses " I don't know" as an excuse to not explore and consider other possible explanations for what you don't know, then it is sad.

That sentence literally makes ZERO sense.
If you don't know, then that means that there ARE NO explanations. So what are you talking about with the word "other"????

"i don't know" is also the exact opposite of a show-stopper position.
Just settling on some faith based unsupportable claim, like "god did it", THAT is what is the show stopper...............................

Especially if that position is being held dogmatically as part of some doctrine. Worse even, in fundamentalist religious circles, it even is so bad that not holding to that dogmatic position is a ticket to an eternal torture chamber.

I mean, for real dude......


So in your opinion, anyone without a phd in cosmology, particle physics, etc... is a sad person?
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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If one uses " I don't know" as an excuse to not explore and consider other possible explanations for what you don't know, then it is sad.

I don't see why you would think that. With regard to abiogenesis "we don't know", but we are looking. Perhaps some light reading?

Credit to /u/maskedman3d on reddit for compiling this list of sources for some of the work being done with regard to abiogenesis

___________________
Early Earth Chemistry:
___________________
____
RNA:
____


___
Amino Acids:
___

_______________________________
Lipids, cell membranes and protocells:
_______________________________


___
Metabolism:
___
___
Homochirality:
___


Observed Natural Occurrence of Molecules:


Generation of Molecules:



Replication of Molecules:


I don't know. Seems like a lot of science going on for something we freely admit "we don't know" about.
 
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Non sequitur

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"i don't know" is also the exact opposite of a show-stopper position.
Just settling on some faith based unsupportable claim, like "god did it", THAT is what is the show stopper...............................
Obviously you don't understand that we can happily accept that we can't understand God and don't know. That is used quite frequently and is fine. It's inherent. Cuz it is.

Unlike how why the universe, which we- wait... gimme a second... you see it's two unknowns... there's this book... um... it's just different levels of accepting unknowns... we know we don't and can't know one, and the other could be known or may never be... hold on, there's a take down coming... one more minute... you are sad. Boom.

*mic drop*
 
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Aman777

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This makes no sense.

God told us you would say this thousands of years ago. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Thanks for confirming God's Holy Word.
 
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Aman777

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the problem is that no holy book creation stories agree with natural phenomena. Including the Bible versions

False, since God tells us of recently discovered scientific facts in Genesis One, which no ancient man could have possibly known. The problem is with the ancient Hebrew traditional view which is obviously wrong since Daniel 12:4 tells us that only the people of the last days have the "increased knowledge" to understand.

Genesis One agrees in every way with every discovery of mankind.
 
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Clint Edwards

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I don´t know what information is, so, just enlighten me. So, biochemicals create information, OK, lets explore that. Two, or a hundred chemicals reacting together can create information, and the process by which that information is used so that various possible options of chemical reactions are controlled by time, and environment. Further, this information is created so that one chemical reaction supports another, does not hinder another, and many, many chemical reactions work together in extremely complex ways to support a living cell.

Since the precursor organism did not inherit this information, no long strands of encoded DNA, no predetermined mechanism to utilize this information, this functioning organism was the result of random chemical reactions that coming together, somehow, somewhere in just the right environment developed all the that perfectly suited the precursor organism so that all its various functions were co ordinated, randomly, by blind chemical reactions, to produce a living organism.

OK ! Got it !

I define life exactly as your Jr Hi biology reacher did
This is actually another perfect example, because the use of "kind" is not at all consistent among creationists. If you ask 5 different creationists for a definition of "kind", you'll get 6 different answers.
 
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HitchSlap

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“This planet has — or rather had — a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much all of the time.”

Thanks for confirming what Douglas Adams had to say almost forty years ago.
 
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Aman777

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...According to Panda.org, which is part of the WWF, there are two types of elephants: the Asian and the African. Obviously if we believe the Bible, there would have to be four elephants on the ark.

False, since the Bible does NOT say that elephants were brought to our Earth from Adam's. What is shows is that you have no idea what Scripture teaches. Want to show us chapter and verse? Of course not.
 
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Aman777

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There's nothing magical or mysterious about a demonstrable natural process.

Then tell us ln the fewest words possible How and When mindless Nature installed the highest form of intelligence into anything, since mindless Nature is neutral, having no force to accomplish anything and having NO intelligence to impart. Magic is the only way such a thing could possibly happen and also WHY it can never be repeated.
 
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Clint Edwards

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Evolutionistś never disagee with one another '? You claim, authoritative decree, the right language for discussing these issues. Thatś fine, and where I know it I use it. Nevertheless, not using the accepted word, or name does not invalidate the concept in discussion one way or another.

Lawyers and ice cream sellers use different words for the same ideas. They operate in different spheres with different linguistic styles and reference points.

Linneaus and his followers did an excellent job in classifying life according to very specific attributes, you use his language, and it is the accepted proper one.
However in my experience with Koine Greek, I have learned that sometimes the exact meaning cannot be translated for a word into English because that word doesn´t exist in English.

Therefore, if a conversation is desired there has to be clarification of terms.

On the other hand, those who know the evolutionary dictionary and how to apply fall into the ever present in the background chimera of derision and smug superiority. Great for their ego, but it destroys any meaningful. Exchange.

From years of experience I have found that many young evolutions get angry, and derisive if you don accept what they propose as factual truth.

Others like muslims on jihad, try to verbally destroy theism, especially Christianity. That is their mission, to destroy the infidel who will not accept what they know is the truth.

They lurk in religious groups, and they hate religion. and they are lurking here.
 
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HitchSlap

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lol
 
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Clint Edwards

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I don´t know what information is, so, just enlighten me. So, biochemicals create information, OK, lets explore that. Two, or a hundred chemicals reacting together can create information, and the process by which that information is used so that various possible options of chemical reactions are controlled by time, and environment. Further, this information is created so that one chemical reaction supports another, does not hinder another, and many, many chemical reactions work together in extremely complex ways to support a living cell.

Since the precursor organism did not inherit this information, no long strands of encoded DNA, no predetermined mechanism to utilize this information, this functioning organism was the result of random chemical reactions that coming together, somehow, somewhere in just the right environment developed all the that perfectly suited the precursor organism so that all its various functions were co ordinated, randomly, by blind chemical reactions, to produce a living organism.


OK ! Got it !



if a mass of dead chemicals becomes alive, I would call that popping. You are either alive or dead, a very rigid line. You didn´t see the mad scientist who created his monster from body parts say when the lightning was raging, well, he is about 3 percent alive, by midnight he should be 100 percent aiive.

You are either alive or dead, a mass of chemicals is either alive or dead.

I define life as your Jr. hi biology teacher did.
 
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