Why do Charismatics die?

Quaffer said:

Mercy,

I'm sorry that you feel using God's word to show the truth is beating. It is really unfair for you to blame others for your feelings. We don't want to hurt people yet telling the truth sometimes does.

I would much rather that I hear the truth that would set me free than have people just telling me what I want to hear so that I can feel good.

Click to expand...

Yep....."suck it up!! Just ignore that life went to hell... We'll just cram the Word down your throat saying: Don't have a feeling! Don't hurt anymore! It doesn't matter that the promises God gave you fell dead on the ground!"

I am asking - seeking - for honest answers as to why sometimes it doens't work..... and how to reconcile that with what the Word says about it. Am sincerely seeking help........ to understand.

My God, even Jesus wept. Would you tell Him.... "suck it up. Here's a scripture that points out you shouldn't have a feeling!" ??

I already got beat up.....with what happened. I am bloody and raw and fileted open and all you can do is say "Sorry you feel that way, but here's a scripture...too bad your faith isn't strong enough to receive it"....

Carlos Vigil said:

Here is a real old tradition;Christ received STRIPES. do you suppose that made Him sick? would you?... Loss of blood all thru the night ,no sleep, beatings, pushing, shoving, do you suppose He was sick? nausiated? when the first nail was pounded thru His wrist, what experience or sensation tore thru His nerve system? do you suppose he went into shock? would you?
thru all he endured, can you still doubt that God uses sickness or pain or suffering to bring something GOOD to us? If His stripes heal you then God uses suffering (yours and mine) to bring us Good. How about Isaiah 53:10...
"But the Lord was pleased to crush Him in infirmity"
One of the barnacles (or tree that God has not planted) is the god of our society;the love of comfort. Carlos (the hitch-hiker)

Click to expand...

The blood that Jesus shed during his scourging and crucifixion was the requirement of the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no redemption" and for that reason, His stripes were a provision of healing.

But we tend to have this idea that all of the horrors that Jesus endured in the last hours of His life were necessary for our redemption. That simply isnt true. When a lamb was sacrificed, it was not subjected to pain. In fact, the sacrificial knife was to be extremely sharp, and if it wasnt, and the lamb was believed to have suffered at all, that sacrifice was not acceptable.

Now, I'm obviously NOT saying Jesus's sacrifice was not accepted because of what He suffered, I'm merely pointing out that it was the shedding of the Lamb's blood that provided the sacrifice. Jesus, as THE Lamb of God actually only needed to shed His blood and give up His life in order to provide atonement for our sins. All the beatings and other horrors He went through happened because of the fallenness of the world and mankind. Jesus' being beaten so badly that He could not be recognized was not part of what He was required to endure to be the perfect sacrifice.

The point I'm trying to make is there's a big difference between God taking the evil things and the effects of the fall that happen and make something redemptive out of it (as with Jesus's passion) and God saying "I'm going to let this happen to you for the purpose of teaching you something or causing you to grow (or whatever)". God redeems the effects of sin and the fall.

Andrew said:

I know what you mean. In many cases, its a mixture of both, i think becos people are still developing and building up their faith, learning to walk by faith. you don't really develop mountain moving faith overnight, except perhaps for some.

The ideal situation of cse, is that you get a personal revelation from God that you are healed so much so that you just know so!! The symptoms may still be there but you are just so sure you are healed. In such cases, there is no fear but a peace, a deep knowing that all WILL be well very soon.



There aren't any. To say that is to say that the scriptures are not clear and sometimes problematic when it comes to salvation. But is salvation that complicated to understnd?

but dismissing them with the broad stroke of "lack of faith"

In the majority of cases, it IS a lack of faith for healing. Spend some time talking to a sick person believing God for healing and 9 out of 10 times, from his words, you can tell that he doesnt really believe, or at least finds it hard to believe. They talk 10 times more about their sickness and the latest report from the doctor and the seriousness of their condition then about what God says about their healing.

There's a saying: "Half the things we profess to believe in, we don't really believe in." And this usually comes to light when the rubber meets the road. When everything is fine and rosy, it's very easy to say "Amen, praise the Lord!" But we have to start somehwere.

Click to expand...

I cannot speak from a health aspect to this issue in that myself and my family have been blessed abundantly with good health. However, at the same time we are and have for many years dealt with poverty. So to apply this post to poverty, I must say, the flesh is weak. Let me put it to you this way, to have faith that God will deliver us is not a problem. Especially when God has told us and confirmed that message, that we will be delivered. To have faith that he has the power to move the mountain of poverty and that that power resides in us as the Holy Spirit, peice of cake. But, we are still in poverty, our physical bodies still experience the pain and struggle of that poverty, we see our children suffer, and because we live in a fallen world where things are not perfect, we complain to ease the stress and pain. (not always, but sometimes) it is not because of a lack of faith, or even trust, though both are an always ongoing process, but it is because our flesh still feels, senses, is temperal, just as God created it to be. I can complain about how stiff I am sleeping on the floor and still look to God and praise Him for the deliverance He brings. I can be frustrated that I have not been delivered yet and still expect that deliverance today and praise the Lord for it. No matter what the situation, I am still a physical being with everything that goes along with that. Should I deny my physical being (God created) feelings so that I appear to be more holy? That would be a lie.

Trish1947 said:

I never said by any means that with one broad stroke its due to lack of faith, I said I do not know why some get healed and others dont. And I'm not waiting for the Lord some day to heal me, I am being healed everyday. Was I scared? Sure, thats a normal human reaction right off the bat, until I realized that Gods word was greater than my fear, that Gods word was greater than MS, that Gods word was for me today, that Gods word was my consolation, my hope, my peace. My recovery.

Click to expand...

Is the power in God's Word, or in God Himself? I always understood the power to be God and His word our teachings of that God.

crystalpc said:

I agree with Didy 100% not just because God has healed me. But because his Word is true. I walked in faith with PP MS for many years, believing all the time I was healed, although the manifestation had not been revealed in my body. I believed it, simply because scripture said it. I had many battles with the disease. and times my faith would lag behind. However, it did not change the fact that God's word said I was healed, and I still believed God's word in spite of near death experiences. He is faithful to his word, and it never returns to him void, never.
If I was still had the disease, I would still believe the word that says I am healed. No one has all the answers, we see through a glass darkly, but what has been revealed in his word is no longer darkness, but light. By his stripes we were healed.
The word says that it is God's will that all would be saved, yet not all are saved. Why? Because some don't know they are lost, others don't care, and still others haven't heard. So salvation although paid for all, is not appropriated by all. Did salvation do them any good?
There are those who may never appropriate healing, while others walk in divine health, should we make God's word of none effect, for the sake of our experiences, that is exactly what the Pharisee's did in the case of the blind man. Since my healing, christian people, have questioned "who does she think she is?" When I was ill, these same people came and visited me in the hospital held my hand, wept with my family everytime death was near, yet now that I walk in health, they question if I was sick to begin with...whew..

Now God uses many methods to heal, confession, laying on of hands, annointing cloths, and even Drs, yet we read that King Hezekiah sought physicians rather than God for a disease of his feet, and within 2 years died of it. I still go to Drs, as does my husband, but not first without seeking God first. If nothing else for him to quide the drs. But there are diseases that drs, cannot cure, diseases unto death. Who is the holder of our life? God and God alone.
I prayed in faith for my younger sister's healing of lung cancer, I don't know why she didn't recieve, it was doubly hard to lose her, I know that one day I will ask her when I get to heaven. But that did not stop me from beleiving in God's word, or even stop my healing from taking place.

Click to expand...

Why is it so hard for us to seperate the temeral from the eternal? In this post, we begin by saying that even if my body was still displaying symptoms of disease, I would believe God's healing. (This is trust in God) This is eternal. The resurrected body has no disease, no symptoms of disease. Perfect, complete, unquestioning, absolute healing. but suddenly by the end of the post, we revert to the question of physical healing. There is no doubt, that God has, does, and will again, heal the temperal, but I have yet to see His word guarentee physical healing, only eternal. That is the point of the resurrection, to show us a healing that goes beyond our understanding.

Is there a belief here that we will be raise to God with an actual body or is the general belief that our new body is a vertual one?

Mercy Me said:

Yep....."suck it up!! Just ignore that life went to hell... We'll just cram the Word down your throat saying: Don't have a feeling! Don't hurt anymore! It doesn't matter that the promises God gave you fell dead on the ground!"

I am asking - seeking - for honest answers as to why sometimes it doens't work..... and how to reconcile that with what the Word says about it. Am sincerely seeking help........ to understand.

My God, even Jesus wept. Would you tell Him.... "suck it up. Here's a scripture that points out you shouldn't have a feeling!" ??

I already got beat up.....with what happened. I am bloody and raw and fileted open and all you can do is say "Sorry you feel that way, but here's a scripture...too bad your faith isn't strong enough to receive it"....

Click to expand...

MM,

You have just been the victim of a heartless approach to Christianity where sectarian beliefs become more important than people.

Coincidentally, I have been studying the “Marks of Cultic Behavior.” One of the marks of a “cultic personality” is that very anomaly (see #11 below).

I am not accusing anyone in this forum of being the member of a cult. But, I am beginning to recognize in myself and others evidence of the kind of personality that seems to be most susceptible to cult-like influence. In fact, I have noticed how often we, in P/C/W circles, may often become more cult-like than Christian in our approach to the Faith.

Here is a list of characteristics of cults that I have found in my research that can apply to even Spirit-filled believers. I have found myself in this list and am working to make some corrections in my behavior and values.

\o/

Mercy,
The attitudes of those on the board do not reflect the heart of God for you, and it is not how Jesus treated those who were in pain. He comforted them. He extended grace to them and He offered them hope.

The Gospel really is still good news. If it no longer feels that way to you it's because somewhere along the line it's been distorted. Go to God. Ask Him to show you the truth. Here's a place to start:

Matt 11:28-29 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit.

Psalm 147:3 He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds.

razzelflabben said:

Is the power in God's Word, or in God Himself? I always understood the power to be God and His word our teachings of that God.

Click to expand...

Remember the saying a man is only as good as His word. I personally cant separate God from what He says. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
When you are believing His word, you ARE believing in God. Jesus said blessed are those that hear the Word of God and Do It. When I believe what He said, I am trusting God.

Example, If I promise to give you something, and you accept my offer. You are assuming that I'm going to give it too you. You are trusting in what I say as truthful. But if I dont give it to you. You will not say that my promise wasn't truthful, but that I was not trustworthy, or truthful. See my point?

Mercy Me said:

Yep....."suck it up!! Just ignore that life went to hell... We'll just cram the Word down your throat saying: Don't have a feeling! Don't hurt anymore! It doesn't matter that the promises God gave you fell dead on the ground!"

Click to expand...

Dear dear friend... nobody is doing to you what you are perceiving. Everyone has feelings and nobody is saying that your's do not count. They do. That is not the point and I for one (and I think Q and the others concur) have no desire whatsoever to hurt you in any way! Why would we do that? What we are trying to do in strong terms is trying to show that the promises of God did not fall on the ground. I realize these seem like empty words when you are in the midst of a crisis or in the aftermath of a tragedy. We have all been there, and so compassion is certainly here. But commiseration is not what you need. You need help and help of the sort that solves the problem... not merely sympathize with the effects it. I want to see you 100% and going full blast. I want you to be an overcomer in all areas of life... not merely an undergoer who endures.

I am asking - seeking - for honest answers as to why sometimes it doesn't work..... and how to reconcile that with what the Word says about it. Am sincerely seeking help........ to understand.

Click to expand...

As believers we have to approach the problem from a standpoint of faith and trust. We really have no choice. I am not going to come and tell you a lie. I really do not think that is what you want... and certainly not what you need. You are right.. there are reasons it does not work, and all of them revolve around us. Not God. That is actually a great relief because if was God then there would be nothing we could do about it. Because it is us, we can do something about it. BUT IT IS NOT A MATTER OF BLAME. I have not heard a single soul here say anything about blame or belittling anyone. It is not a matter of blame... it is just a matter of finding the cause and addressing it. No blame, no fault. Just issues and solutions.

My God, even Jesus wept. Would you tell Him.... "suck it up. Here's a scripture that points out you shouldn't have a feeling!" ??

Click to expand...

Yes He did wept.... and nobody said you should not have a feeling. Not that I see. What I have seen is people saying that we are to walk by faith not by sight(or feelings). We all weep... if we are human. But that is not a solution. There is a time to weep and a time to stop weeping and find out what is going on.

I already got beat up.....with what happened. I am bloody and raw and fileted open and all you can do is say "Sorry you feel that way, but here's a scripture...too bad your faith isn't strong enough to receive it"....

Click to expand...

Let me reiterate. Nobody is beating anyone up. If you feel you are being beat up, I might suggest that this feeling is symptomatic of a deeper issue. Resolving this deeper issue may lead to the overall solution. That is just my first impression. I assume you want the issues resolved?
I also spent many years suffering under a cloud of pain and sorrow because of something that happened before I was saved (actually I was a teen at the time). It took me well into my 30s before I could even form the issue in my heart and mind. I got mad, then I got very depressed... then I dealt with it. I had to resolve the issue within myself. The depression, pain, and lingering sorrow left and I have not been bothered since. My solution was forgiveness... not only of the ones who hurt me, but forgiveness of myself for feeling what I did for all those years, and eventually a cleaning of my soul of the pains, hurts, and sorrows that scarred me. There was bitterness, resentment, rejection... you name it. My issue was one of soul healing. I had actually taught soul healing in the church for some time... and eventually that teaching is what helped me resolve the issue.
MM, I do not pretend to know all about you and what is going on.. but I do know my own heart and am confident about the hearts of those sharing in this forum... and we wish you no harm in any way. Most of us have been where you in one way or another. We do have compassion because of this. I could very well be wrong dear heart... but I really think if the deeper issues are taken care of, you will go on and live a long and fulfilled life. That is the will of God for you.

Love in Christ
Didaskalos

Excellent post Jim. I've been dealing with many of these issues too, or rather working to find ways of countering or reversing these attitudes. Seems I need to do some self searching too, and make sure I'm not contributing to the problem as well.

Peace
PottersClay

Jim B said:

MM,

You have just been the victim of a heartless approach to Christianity where sectarian beliefs become more important than people.

Coincidentally, I have been studying the ?Marks of Cultic Behavior.? One of the marks of a ?cultic personality? is that very anomaly (see #11 below).

I am not accusing anyone in this forum of being the member of a cult. But, I am beginning to recognize in myself and others evidence of the kind of personality that seems to be most susceptible to cult-like influence. In fact, I have noticed how often we, in P/C/W circles, may often become more cult-like than Christian in our approach to the Faith.

Here is a list of characteristics of cults that I have found in my research that can apply to even Spirit-filled believers. I have found myself in this list and am working to make some corrections in my behavior and values.

1. Exclusiveness of distinctive doctrines which are held to be superior to others? beliefs.
2. Denounce those who object to their beliefs.
3. Adopt an ?Us vs. Them? mentality.
4. Stress, and are well-versed in, pet proof texts (i.e., use the Bible mainly to support beliefs).
5. Teach canned/programmed responses to objections to their beliefs.
6. See Christianity as works-based (i.e., ego-centric), where God?s approval or blessing depends on our actions or beliefs.
7. Venerate heroes and follow compelling personalities.
8. Overly-value extra-biblical authority (prophecies, revelations, visions, etc.)
9. Demand loyalty to peculiar beliefs and fellowship.
10. Financially exploit followers.
11. Beliefs become more important than people.​

\o/

Click to expand...

Mercy Me said:

Yep....."suck it up!! Just ignore that life went to hell... We'll just cram the Word down your throat saying: Don't have a feeling! Don't hurt anymore! It doesn't matter that the promises God gave you fell dead on the ground!"

I am asking - seeking - for honest answers as to why sometimes it doens't work..... and how to reconcile that with what the Word says about it. Am sincerely seeking help........ to understand.

My God, even Jesus wept. Would you tell Him.... "suck it up. Here's a scripture that points out you shouldn't have a feeling!" ??

I already got beat up.....with what happened. I am bloody and raw and fileted open and all you can do is say "Sorry you feel that way, but here's a scripture...too bad your faith isn't strong enough to receive it"....

Click to expand...

This is the very reason pat answers don't work and we need instead to understand and seek God on every level, in every situation.

May God grant you peace and the rest that comes from complete trust in Him.

Let me share a little story with you, if it doesn't help, I am sorry I wasted your time. WE are currently struggling with poverty and believe through many avenues that God has promised us individually (not colletively) that we will be delivered. The pain and struggle of waiting is at times more than myself or my family can bare. One night, I was crying myself to sleep and praying, struggling with whether or not I had enough faith, whether or not the rest of my family has enough faith. Questioning whether or not sin brought me here, all of the same old oppressive quesitons that many in the church use to excuse and/or dismiss God's lack of deliverance. That is when I heard God's voice (I won't get into that one right now) but what He said was very sugnificant and important and has changed our lives completely though we still live in poverty. HE SAID, "REST CHILD, JUST REST" To make a long story short, I argued a while because the pain was still there and God said, rest child, just rest. I learned that night that no matter if we are delivered in this physical life or not, it is vital to our lives both physical and spiritual to trust God so much that we can rest in HIs answer no matter what that answer is. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths. I still look every day for that deliverance, I still try to find it, I still believe God will deliver, but, when I sit at the end of the day and have a good cry, I know that it is time again to rest in the loving arms of God, to listen to the beat of His heart, and simply rest. Why is there rest, because God is not oppressive, He is loving and He understands my tears and frustrations, even my anger, and confussion, because he is God, the loving father, etc. Rest my child, no more questions, just rest, trust me, feel my heart beat and know that you are mine and I shall protect you, rest child, just rest.

May God give you rest dear one as you wait for His deliverance.

Trish1947 said:

Remember the saying a man is only as good as His word. I personally cant separate God from what He says. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
When you are believing His word, you ARE believing in God. Jesus said blessed are those that hear the Word of God and Do It. When I believe what He said, I am trusting God.

Example, If I promise to give you something, and you accept my offer. You are assuming that I'm going to give it too you. You are trusting in what I say as truthful. But if I dont give it to you. You will not say that my promise wasn't truthful, but that I was not trustworthy, or truthful. See my point?

Click to expand...

I see your point and if has merit and yet, the two are completely seperate as well, for I am still responsible for what I say, my words are not responsible for me. In other words, I governe myself, including my words, not the other way around. I find the power to be in God, not His words. His words tell be about God and how to find Him, not the other way around.

razzelflabben said:

I see your point and if has merit and yet, the two are completely seperate as well, for I am still responsible for what I say, my words are not responsible for me. In other words, I governe myself, including my words, not the other way around. I find the power to be in God, not His words. His words tell be about God and how to find Him, not the other way around.

Click to expand...

You say that your responsible for what you say. This is true. Is not God responsible for what He says. I do not separate the Father, from what He has said to me.

Its the same down here on earth. When I was a child when my dad made a promise to me, I had full assurance that he was going to do what He said. I trusted him to keep his promises. My dad was a comforting man, he held me when I had a boo boo on my knee, he loved me and gave me solice when I was sad, gave me instruction, but when He made a promise, he was faithful to fulfill his promise to me. I could trust what he said to me also.

Trish1947 said:

You say that your responsible for what you say. This is true. Is not God responsible for what He says. I do not separate the Father, from what He has said to me.

Its the same down here on earth. When I was a child when my dad made a promise to me, I had full assurance that he was going to do what He said. I trusted him to keep his promises.

Click to expand...

Right, but it was still your father that fulfilled the promise, not the words of your father. If your fathers words had taken you to the park, (or whatever the promise was), you would still have been left wanting your father. Your father was the fulfilment of the promise. God's word is the promise. God is the fulfillment of that promise. So there in lies the power, not in the promise, but in the fulfilment of that promise.

Here is a list of characteristics of cults that I have found in my research that can apply to even Spirit-filled believers.

1. Exclusiveness of distinctive doctrines which are held to be superior to others? beliefs.


2. Denounce those who object to their beliefs.
3. Adopt an ?Us vs. Them? mentality.
4. Stress, and are well-versed in, pet proof texts (i.e., use the Bible mainly to support beliefs).
5. Teach canned/programmed responses to objections to their beliefs.
6. See Christianity as works-based (i.e., ego-centric), where God?s approval or blessing depends on our actions or beliefs.
7. Venerate heroes and follow compelling personalities.
8. Overly-value extra-biblical authority (prophecies, revelations, visions, etc.)
9. Demand loyalty to peculiar beliefs and fellowship.
10. Financially exploit followers.
11. Beliefs become more important than people.​

Click to expand...

razzelflabben said:

Right, but it was still your father that fulfilled the promise, not the words of your father. If your fathers words had taken you to the park, (or whatever the promise was), you would still have been left wanting your father. Your father was the fulfilment of the promise. God's word is the promise. God is the fulfillment of that promise. So there in lies the power, not in the promise, but in the fulfilment of that promise.

Click to expand...

I see where you are coming from. But does not God say, that His Word shall not return to Him void? It doesn't say that God shall not return to Him void. His word is powerful. I do not separate the personality of God from what He has said. God wants to be believed when He says something. Not just believe that there is a God.


Tts 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word by preaching.

Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

My VERY humble opinion... as a verified and confirmed cultist.

Click to expand...

AMEN

My VERY humble opinion... as a verified and confirmed cultist.

Click to expand...

Rather than identifying with these rather nefarious traits, wouldn’t it be better to try to rid them from our life? I see some of them in me and I do not find them that appealing.

\o/

razzelflabben said:

Why is it so hard for us to seperate the temeral from the eternal? In this post, we begin by saying that even if my body was still displaying symptoms of disease, I would believe God's healing. (This is trust in God) This is eternal. The resurrected body has no disease, no symptoms of disease.

Is there a belief here that we will be raise to God with an actual body or is the general belief that our new body is a vertual one?

Click to expand...

Pharisee's never questioned Jesus about healing, their problem was when he said your sins are forgiven. We have turned this around. How do I know that in some sweet by and by my name is writen in the book of life? I haven't seen the book.
I am a temporal being, as well as an eternal one, and temporal will pass away. However, what is easier to say thy sins are forgiven or rise and be healed?
You asked a question about our new bodys. They will be like Jesus, flesh and bone. "a spirit hath not flesh and bone" "we shall be as he is"

Jim B said:

Rather than identifying with these rather nefarious traits, wouldn’t it be better to try to rid them from our life? I see some of them in me and I do not find them that appealing.

\o/

Click to expand...

So what would you suggest we give up, so I don't have to worry about what people think about what I believe. If we're identified as a cult, because of what we know in our hearts as the truth. Your asking us to settle with the world, settle with peoples opinions, settle with that one that thinks we're a cult. Um...
I wonder if Jesus thought about settleing when they reviled Him?