Why do Calvinists....

GodsElect · Jan 10, 2007

Or what if you were born normal, never knew God, sinned as a child, born dead in sin and trespasses just like all of us, Then got into a tragic accident, and became BRAIN DEAD. You couldn't make a choice or respond to anything. In your interpretation, that person WILL NOT be saved because they couldn't do anything to respond and accept regeneration, or not know that Jesus loved them, or couldn't even think about God. Thus be thrown into Hell for not accepting the FREE GIFT of salvation.

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

GodsElect said:
what if your brain dead, but alive.

Can it be said that such a person is turely alive? What is the nature of life? Is it the ability of the body to pump blood, draw breath and process food? I think it is more than that. Along with all those things I think life includes the ability to think and interface, by whatever means neccessary, with the world around you.

So I would say that whatever your relationship with God was before you became braind dead would determine your salvation.

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

GodsElect said:
Or what if you were born normal, never knew God, sinned as a child, born dead in sin and trespasses just like all of us, Then got into a tragic accident, and became BRAIN DEAD. You couldn't make a choice or respond to anything. In your interpretation, that person WILL NOT be saved because they couldn't do anything to respond and accept regeneration, or not know that Jesus loved them, or couldn't even think about God. Thus be thrown into Hell for not accepting the FREE GIFT of salvation.

I do not know. You do not know. The Bible is utterlty silent on the fate of people who are brain dead or mentally incapable of understanding. God is Just and Holy and I trust Him to deal with those matters he has not addressed in His word.

GodsElect · Jan 10, 2007

do you even think about ALL GLORY be To GOD for ALL things means. Because you say that you had to play a part and grab onto life preserver to be saved. God did 99% of the work while you had to grab onto the life presever and do your 1%. What if you had no arms and no legs you were deaf and mute? You couldn't grab onto the life presever. You would surely drown, UNLESS, GOD ALONE came down, grabbed you by your hair, and yanked you out of the water and saved you. You could even call out to Him to save you or respond when He said He was going to save you. He ALONE does ALL the work and you get no 1% of doing anything. It doesn't say ALL glory be to God and 1% to man for responding.

Reformationist · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
My point is that as long as you are alive physically, God can save you spiritually.

And who is it that determines when you will perish?

You act as if physical death bars God from accomplishing a desire to save someone.

I'm curious, do you believe that anyone ever goes to hell that God purposed to save through His Son?

God bless

GodsElect · Jan 10, 2007

I do not know. You do not know. The Bible is utterlty silent on the fate of people who are brain dead or mentally incapable of understanding. God is Just and Holy and I trust Him to deal with those matters he has not addressed in His word.

No it doesn't. But is goes a step futher and says that MAN is DEAD.
Not even Handicapped but DEAD! So not only would a handicapped person NOT be able to respond, but a spiritually DEAD person would not even be able to formulate a thought about God to accept or reject Him. Unless God made Him alive FIRST, that is, BEFORE THE CHOICE.

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

GodsElect said:
do you even think about ALL GLORY be To GOD for ALL things means. Because you say that you had to play a part and grab onto life preserver to be saved. God did 99% of the work while you had to grab onto the life presever and do your 1%. What if you had no arms and no legs you were deaf and mute? You couldn't grab onto the life presever. You would surely drown, UNLESS, GOD ALONE came down, grabbed you by your hair, and yanked you out of the water and saved you. You could even call out to Him to save you or respond when He said He was going to save you. He ALONE does ALL the work and you get no 1% of doing anything. It doesn't say ALL glory be to God and 1% to man for responding.

Whether God throws me a life preserver or pulls me out by the hair, I am equally saved. Either way, God gets all the credit because He went looking for me, He found and He is responsible for my salvation whether it was by the hair or by the life preserver.

Reformationist · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Whether God throws me a life preserver or pulls me out by the hair, I am equally saved. Either way, God gets all the credit because He went looking for me, He found and He is responsible for my salvation whether it was by the hair or by the life preserver.

It is only the same if you contend that your hair cooperated in being pulled as you contend that you cooperated in "reaching out and grasping the life preserver."

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

Reformationist said:
And who is it that determines when you will perish?

God knows when and how I will perish. Whether that was by devine decree or devine forknowledge, I know not. Most likely, at this moment in time, we do not agree about this.

Reformationist said:
You act as if physical death bars God from accomplishing a desire to save someone.

It does not bar God but it marks the end of His offer of salvation. If you believe that God offeres people a second chance after they die then you believe in universal salvation. Universalism is a tool of satan to decieve people away from Christ.

Reformationist said:
I'm curious, do you believe that anyone ever goes to hell that God purposed to save through His Son?

No.

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

GodsElect said:
No it doesn't. But is goes a step futher and says that MAN is DEAD.
Not even Handicapped but DEAD! So not only would a handicapped person NOT be able to respond, but a spiritually DEAD person would not even be able to formulate a thought about God to accept or reject Him. Unless God made Him alive FIRST, that is, BEFORE THE CHOICE.

But a spiritually dead person who is physically alive can be made aware of their spiritual death. We hear the Gospel, God opens our eyes to the truth and we respond.

cygnusx1 · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
But a spiritually dead person who is physically alive can be made aware of their spiritual death. We hear the Gospel, God opens our eyes to the truth and we respond.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those
who are perishing; but to us who are being saved it is
the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Reformationist · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
God knows when and how I will perish. Whether that was by devine decree or devine forknowledge, I know not. Most likely, at this moment in time, we do not agree about this.

Well, as we are explicitly told that not even a sparrow falls to the groud apart from the will of God, I know which camp I'm in so if we don't agree, that does not bode well for you.

It does not bar God but it marks the end of His offer of salvation. If you believe that God offeres people a second chance after they die then you believe in universal salvation. Universalism is a tool of satan to decieve people away from Christ.

I do not endorse universalism. I also do not endorse the silly idea that God fails to save someone He intends to save.

No.

So that means that you believe God saves every single person He intended to save?

God bless

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those
who are perishing; but to us who are being saved it is
the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

Yes... It would seem that you and I are saying the same thing.

Reformationist · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
But a spiritually dead person who is physically alive can be made aware of their spiritual death.

Not so long as they remain spiritually dead, the logic of which you also cannot escape as you clearly recognize that man naturally has his eyes closed to the truth and it is God alone who has the power to open them.

God bless

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

Reformationist said:
Not so long as they remain spiritually dead, the logic of which you also cannot escape as you clearly recognize that man naturally has his eyes closed to the truth and it is God alone who has the power to open them.

God bless

I agree. It is places like this where my human analogies fall apart. I have always maintained that God is the initiator and salvation is available only through Gods grace. We defer slightly on when your eyes are opened.

FreeInChrist2 · Jan 10, 2007

Have been watching this debate for a while now and am really getting a lot of laughs here on one hand. On the other hand my heart is breaking for this poor Boxmaker.

Boxmaker, you continue to seem to think you were only drowing assuming your were able to swim or float. You start from a wrong supposition. You were never floating on top of the ocean.

You were born dead at the bottom of the ocean. A life preserver won't sink to the bottom where you could grab it...what kind of God would throw a life preserver anyway? Can't your god save you or did does he need your help.

Perhaps a discussion of justification and santification is in order here. Do you understand the difference?

FreeInChrist2 · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker. So can you loose your salvation? I'm supprised my Calvinist brothers haven't asked this yet.

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

FreeInChrist2 said:
Have been watching this debate for a while now and am really getting a lot of laughs here on one hand. On the other hand my heart is breaking for this poor Boxmaker.

Boxmaker, you continue to seem to think you were only drowing assuming your were able to swim or float. You start from a wrong supposition. You were never floating on top of the ocean.

You were born dead at the bottom of the ocean. A life preserver won't sink to the bottom where you could grab it...what kind of God would throw a life preserver anyway? Can't your god save you or did does he need your help.

Perhaps a discussion of justification and santification is in order here. Do you understand the difference?

[From reference.com]
justification by faith. Theology. the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

Sanctification or in its verb form, sanctify, literally means to set apart for special use or purpose, that is to make holy or sacred.

Yes, we are justified by faith alone through grace alone. It is the work of Jesus as in Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit after we have justified as in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
[ Stand Firm ] But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

As for my analogy, I have said before it is imperfect for I am using the physical to describe the spiritual. The point is that while I am alive physically, God can save me. When I die physically then I face judgment as do all of us. It is how life goes. We start out spiritually dead. Along the way we hear the gospel. The parable of the farmer sewing seeds comes to mind. Some seed fall on furtile ground and bring forth fruits, some fall among the weeds and are choked out and some falls on the rocks and never grows.

Anyway, I await your wisdom. Maybe you can answer a question as along the way. Is the difference in our beliefes enough to send one of us to hell and the other to heaven?

Boxmaker · Jan 10, 2007

FreeInChrist2 said:
Boxmaker. So can you loose your salvation? I'm supprised my Calvinist brothers haven't asked this yet.

I am still looking into this very question. I have seen some verses that say that those who fall away from the body cannot be returned to the body. I cannot find those verses right off the top of my head (Biblegateway search). Dang it! Anyway, it is a question that I am not prepared to answer until I have found those verses and prayerfully studied them in context.

Blessings to you.

GodsElect · Jan 10, 2007

Boxmaker said:
But a spiritually dead person who is physically alive can be made aware of their spiritual death.

Yes and AMEN! Yes we were spiritually dead while physically alive. And yes we were MADE aware MADE ALIVE FIRST to see the state of our previous spiritual death. We couldn't see the state of our Deadness while we were DEAD. But for God who gave us a new life first by His grace, that we saw that state of death in us and our sins. But we couldn't even see this unless God quickened us FIRST by the Holy Spirit with our new life from our previously dead state. I was BORN AGAIN then responded positively to His call. NOT I responded positvely, then was born again. We must be born again FIRST to respond positvely to His calling. Just like your first birth. You were BORN FIRST then took the first breath of new life. So is the same being born of the spirit. You were born of the Spirit FIRST then you took the first breath of new spiritual life and were made able, you were made alive to respond positively to the truth. God would not make anyone alive to respond negitively to His call. The reason they dont believe is because they are still dead. He has not made them alive to choose anything. They are still dead.

We hear the Gospel, God opens our eyes to the truth and we respond.

Amen! We do hear the Gospel. Whether we respond positvely or negitively to the Gospel depends on the spiritual state of that person. If they are dead, they will not respond positively to the Gospel. If they have been made alive they WILL respond positively to the Gospel and the call of God. The truth of God will become very clear in the heart of the person who God has made alive. Thus they will respond positively and find that hunger for more of God's truth.

Boxmaker, nowhere eles in this thread have you made so much sense. When I saw that you said..." God opens our eyes to the truth and we respond"
I was like WOW I think that he may have gotten it! Yes, that statement is correct and is in that particular order.

1.God opens our eyes to the truth, (makes us aware and alive)
2.Thus, we respond (we respond positively and see our sins by the revelation of the truth.)
3. Believe, repent, and rejoice! (now we see how lost we were without Him and that the Lord would reveal His truth to a "wretch like me", and in desparate need of a savior.)

God would not open the eyes of a person if He intended for them to parish! Why would He do that if the person would reject Him?
Why would He make someone alive that would not respond positively. Why would He make them alive to reject Him when He could have just let him STAY DEAD AND BLIND?

Anyway I hope that you got it and we can have fruitfull discussions from the truth of His word.

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