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Why wouldn't He, Box?That does not mean that God ordains each and every thought and action before the foundations of the world were laid.
Why would He? God did not create us to be robots carrying out a pre-assigned set of instructions. He created us to be with Him and to love Him because we want to, not because we have to. Man is not pond scum to God. God became Christ and died for our sins to redeem us to Him. Humans are the only ones He did that for. Granted, humans are the only ones who need redemption, but He didn't have to do it. He could have let the flood wipe out everything and sarted over. He didn't. Why?Why wouldn't He, Box?
Is this scripture true?:Why would He?
If it is, and assume you believe it is, and if God bothers to decide every small thing as a cast of lots, if man devises his way but God directs his steps, why would He leave such important things as the thoughts of men to some random chance?Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
Who said you had pre-assigned instructions? Do you? I don't. All things are ordained of God, but we mere humans don't get to see the plan, we must "devise our ways", which is why we are responsible, but "God directs our steps", which is obvious preordination. Your problem is that you just don't want to believe scripture, and instead prefer to hold to your own (or your apostate teachers') version of things. How is that any different from a pagan?God did not create us to be robots carrying out a pre-assigned set of instructions.
Well, we may not (always) smell as bad, but I don't see where He is sending any pond scum to hell, so that might not be such a thing to boast about.Man is not pond scum to God.
Your error is thinking He did it for us foremost. He did it for His glory above any other motivation.God became Christ and died for our sins to redeem us to Him. Humans are the only ones He did that for.
FOR HIS GLORY! Not because of anything worth saving in man. Your favorite verses:Granted, humans are the only ones who need redemption, but He didn't have to do it. He could have let the flood wipe out everything and sarted over. He didn't. Why?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
Myth of Free WillMost people say that they believe in "free will." Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?
by Walter Chantry
No one denies that man has a willthat is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.
THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM
Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20).
And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.
By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.
Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, "A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps" (Prov. 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23).
Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do. But your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, "I will do this; I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods... But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you" (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.
But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making moral decisions. Man's will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man's will free to choose?
THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM
The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.
Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition, according to the condition of your heart.
It is just for this reason that your will is not free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).
"No one does good, not even one" (Rom. 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.
Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, "Their senseless minds are darkened" (Rom. 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, "No one seeks for God" (Rom. 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose Good. To choose good is contrary human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose, and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.
If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh. This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man's powers of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without a prior work of divine grace.
(this is especially true for you Box)
What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to only evil continually. Jeremiah asked, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots?Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature.
Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.
In spite of the great praise that is given to "free will," we have seen that man's will is not free to choose a course contrary to God's purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality.
Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. Here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.
THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM
There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called "faith." But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, "Out of the power of their own free will." But how can that be? Jesus is a prophet. To receive him means to believe all that he says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, "Because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me." How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?
To receive Jesus further means to embrace him as a priestthat is, to employ,and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrific and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.
Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome him as a king. It means choosing to obey his every command, to confess his right of rule, and to worship before his throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, "We will not have this man to reign over us" (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates his truth, hates his rule, and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith?
It is not man's will but God's grace that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission, man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must be given before a man will believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human natureeven in the matter of conversion. Jesus said, "Marvel not that I said to you, you must be born again" (John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see his kingdom.
Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been "born, not of the will of man, but of God." As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor. 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he chose to answer the call of Christ, but he did not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:4 & 5, "When we were dead in sins God has quickened us with Christ (by grace you are saved)." Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life.
No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of The Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature.
(this is for you too Box)...
You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance.
Why do you insist on making free will out to be something entirely alien to what it is? Our choices are not infinite, we can only choose between what is available to us.So Boxmaker, Do you want to go to Hawaii tomorrow?....
Oh and I need you to buy me a plane ticket too so you can take me...
...whats that?
Your not gonna take me to Hawaii?
OH! that's right your not FREE to take a trip tomorrow, nor buy me a plane ticket.
So much for that potent free will!
Better yet let's just FREE WILL ourselves some wings on our backs so we can just fly for free to Hawaii.
....uh, DARN nothin happened! I thought I was free to choose some wings on my back!
Well I guess my will is not so FREE!
Why do you insist on making free will out to be something entirely alien to what it is? Our choices are not infinite, we can only choose between what is available to us.
I could choose to take my family to Hawaii tomorrow. We could take you too (don't count on it though) but it is not practical for us right now. We have chosen to use that money to remodel the kitchen.
I cannot choose to grow wings for any reason so it is not an issue of will.
Free will is the ability to choose from what is available to use. Chocolate or vanilla. Kitchen or Hawaii. Chinese or Mediterranean. God or hell.
Why do you insist on making free will out to be something entirely alien to what it is? Our choices are not infinite, we can only choose between what is available to us.
I could choose to take my family to Hawaii tomorrow. We could take you too (don't count on it though) but it is not practical for us right now. We have chosen to use that money to remodel the kitchen.
I cannot choose to grow wings for any reason so it is not an issue of will.
Free will is the ability to choose from what is available to use. Chocolate or vanilla. Kitchen or Hawaii. Chinese or Mediterranean. God or hell.
That is one of the best descriptions of free will I have had the pleasure to read. Mr. Gownes is far more eloquent than I in voicing what I believe free will is and is not.There is one small problem with your premise. Man's will is in bondage.
"The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7
[SIZE=+2]M[/SIZE]an, created in Gods image, possesses a mind, a heart, and a will. The mind, or intellect, allows him to think rationally, not by sheer instinct like an animal. The heart, or emotion, enables him to feel, unlike a robot or machine, human experience. The will, or volition, enables him to make decisions and choices that have moral consequences. It is his capacity for action, a capacity that allows him to choose this over that and those instead of these.
[SIZE=+2]I[/SIZE]n his unfallen state, man was good and very good. The fall, however, affected every part of mans being. Mans mind, by virtue of his fallen nature was darkened, incapable of understanding the things of the Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14). Further, his emotions are now deceptive and untrustworthy (Jeremiah 17:9) and his will, that is, his ability to choose good over evil and right over wrong, is bound. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith reads,
"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to commit himself, or to prepare himself thereto."
[SIZE=+2]
S[/SIZE]o, is man free? If by the word "free" one means that people have the ability to make certain choices on their own (i.e. free from compulsion, force, or coercion), then the answer is "yes." For example, people have the ability to choose to go to the store or stay home, to buy a newspaper or not, to eat beef or to eat fish, etc.; such choices are within the natural capacity of human beings. People are free to act according to their nature.
If by the word "free", however, one means free without any limitation, then the answer is "no." People are not free to act contrary to their nature. I cannot choose to fly. Yes, I can choose to travel by airplane, but I cannot choose to sprout wings or become a bird. My will, you see, is not entirely free. It is bound by the limits of my nature. We do not have the freedom to be anything we are not.
Man, in other words, is not free to act outside the boundaries of his human nature. He cannot live the life of a fish in the ocean or fly like a bird in the air without external resources enabling him to duplicate his natural environment. Just as that is true on a natural level, it is also true on a spiritual level. In his fallen state, man cannot choose to be righteous. The Ethiopian cannot by his own sheer willpower, change the color of his skin, nor the leopard his spots. Neither can those whose nature is depraved voluntarily do good (Jeremiah 13:23). Mans will is enslaved to his sinful nature. Left to himself, his only capacity is fleshly.
Unregenerate people are not free to choose righteousness or wickedness; they are, on the contrary, "free from righteousness" (Romans 6:20). By nature, mans will is a "will not" (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 58:3; John 5:40, Isaiah 26:10). His only inclination is toward carnality. The natural man will never choose anything but sin, because he cannot operate outside the parameters of his sinful nature (Romans 8:7). The nature of mans will is not free.
Not until his nature is changed does he have the desire or the capacity to choose righteousness. Prior to Gods work of regeneration in the soul, therefore, mans will is bound by the old nature. In regeneration, the fallen sinner is made "willing in the day of Gods power" (Psalm 110:3). He is given a new nature, a righteous nature, capable of responding to God. Because the old nature is not eradicated, however, a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh ensues (Romans 7) - requiring deliberate and decisive efforts of the will for righteousness (Romans 6:11-23). In other words, the believer must choose, every day, between the options of serving sin or righteousness (Joshua 24:15; Romans 6:13). With such a conflict facing us, we should be glad that the Holy Spirit will continue to work within us "both to will and to do His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
Because mans will, apart from the new nature given in the new birth, is bound, it is incapable of choosing eternal life. Mans only hope of eternal life, then, is rooted in Gods initiative and choice. Salvation, in other words, depends on Gods choice, not mine, and upon His sovereign will, not mans fallen will (John 1:13; Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:5,11; Hebrews 10:10). That, my friend, is a firm foundation!
Michael Gowens
Free will is the ability to choose from what is available to use. Chocolate or vanilla. Kitchen or Hawaii. Chinese or Mediterranean. God or hell.
So Boxmaker, Do you want to go to Hawaii tomorrow?....
Boxmaker said... "but it is not practical for us right now. We have chosen to use that money to remodel the kitchen."
Boxmaker said..."We could take you too (don't count on it though)"
I am free to choose between vanilla and chocolate. I prefer vanilla but there are days when I want chocolate. I would almost never choose strawberry. I can choose chocolate, vanilla or nothing. My choice is influanced by many things but the final choice is mine. I am free to choose from what is available to me.No actually what you are discribing is NOT FREE WILL!
Free will is FREE FROM ANY INFLUENCE either internal or external.
But such is not the case with the choices that you have described above.
1. You cannot choose which ice cream you want contrary to your own thoughts about chocolate and vanilla.
If you love chocolate and hate vanilla. You would always choose chocolate over vanilla. So were your free from your internal influence telling you to choose chocolate over vanilla. The answer is NO. You chose chocolate because it is burned into your head that you hate vanilla and would never choose vanilla. Thus your will is in bondage to the internal forces that work within you and not free from anything at all.
In point of fact, I am free to leave my family and work and take you to Hawaii. If I am willing to accept the consequences, I can do those things. I am not. I value my family and like (and need) my job. So while I am free to choose to go to Hawaii, I choose not to go. You'll have to find somebody else to buy you your ticket.GodsElect said:2. You cannot choose to go to Hawaii or instead get your Kitchen remodeled outside of the internal and external forces limiting you.
First, let me show you again what the question was
The question was, if you would be willing to go to Hawaii and pay for my ticket too TOMORROW! Which is today and I still don't have that plane ticket yet. Now why is it that we aren't going to Hawaii TODAY?
Well first, you are not free to just up and leave your job, family, other plans you had scheduled, ect... Your will cannot act outside of the external forces that keep you right where you are this moment. You could not go to Hawaii today because you must have the money to remodel you kitchen, right? I believe you said so yourself...
Again, I am free to make that choice if I am willing to accept the consequences of that choice. I have never said our will is unlimited. It is limited to what is available to us. Part of walking with Christ is to treat my wife, and family, as Christ treated His church. I try to do that and put their needs ahead of my own.GodsElect said:So were you free from the influence of your wife, that would beat you over the head with a pan if you spent the money for the kitchen
remodel on something like a trip for you and you good ol' buddy Godselect?
So, you were NOT free to take that trip and NOT free to buy my a plane ticket because of all of the outside and internal influences. And that is not free will at all! Your will is in bondage to whatever influences it the most.
GodsElect Your heart's desire gives the mind a will to do something. If it is not your hearts desire to choose vanilla said:On some issues, I agree, on other issues, I don't agree. Walk into Baskin Robins and you will have choices. Get married and your hearts desire changes. Get saved, and your hearts desires change again. Each time, your reaction to the available options will change as well. The fact that you have a choice to make does not change.
Yes, salvation is the work of God. God must work in your heart first before you can be saved. Keep in mind that Pharaoh hardened his heart at times and God hardened Pharaohs heart at other times. Pharaoh had a choice to make. He chose poorly. We can do the same. People hear the Gospel. They may be drawn to it but they can also harden their heart to it. Or God can.GodsElect said:Thus is the same with coming to the Lord. If we are born dead in trespasses and sin. If we are not willing to choose God. If we were born by nature children of wrath. If no man seeks after God. If we were once at emnity with God. We weren't FREE to do anything but to do what was contrary to our NATURE. We were born enemies of God and it was our nature to REJECT God and live lives of utter depravity apart from God.
Only until that outside influence (the Holy Spirit) came into your heart and changed it first, and became the internal influence, you would have NEVER came to God! Your nature was always to reject Him! Your WILL WAS IN BONDAGE TO ITS NATURE OF WRATH!
So is your will really free at all? Free from all influences? Independent of any work of the Holy Spirit before you came to Christ?
This is how Jesus explains that outside influence that comes to ALL those who truly believe in Him.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
He doesn't say "This is the work of your free will, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
So does man have the will to stop God from drawing him?
No man does Boxmaker. That would make God out to be a weakling!
You were made willing, if you are, by the power of God the Holy Spirit ALONE. The one and only perfect internal influence of the will.
I pray that this may help you to understand who's will really counts for anything.
That is one of the best descriptions of free will I have had the pleasure to read. Mr. Gownes is far more eloquent than I in voicing what I believe free will is and is not.
God works in your heart. People can accept His gift of salvation or reject that gift. I believe that God ordained that we would have to make that choice.Did you read the entire quote? If so, the paragraph you are now agreeing with below is completely apposed to your previous statement in which you said (""FREE WILL is the ability to choose from what is available to use. Chocolate or vanilla. Kitchen or Hawaii. Chinese or Mediterranean. GOD OR HELL""). We all agree on the Chocolate or vanilla, Chinese or Mediterranean but not as you said "God or Hell". Mans unregenerate will is in bondage, a slave to sin.
"Unregenerate people are not free to choose righteousness or wickedness; they are, on the contrary, "free from righteousness" (Romans 6:20). By nature, mans will is a "will not" (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 58:3; John 5:40, Isaiah 26:10). His only inclination is toward carnality. The natural man will never choose anything but sin, because he cannot operate outside the parameters of his sinful nature (Romans 8:7). The nature of mans will is not free."
Michael Gowens.
God works in your heart. People can accept His gift of salvation or reject that gift. I believe that God ordained that we would have to make that choice.
Not what, who. God/Jesus/Holy SpiritSo if Bob is saved and Jim is not, what has made the difference?
Not what, who. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit
Jim rejected Him.You said this: "God works in your heart. People can accept His gift of salvation or reject that gift. I believe that God ordained that we would have to make that choice."
According to your above statement, if Bob is saved and Jim is not, it's because Bob accepted and Jim rejected.
Yes or No?
Jim rejected Him.
God initiates we respond. God starts it so without out God, there is nothing. Jim and Bob both respond to God, one for God, one against. The difference is one surrendered into God's plan for salvation and the other rejected it. This the fundemental diference between Calvinism and Open theologies: Under Calvinism there is no choice, you either saved or damned by God's choice. Under open theology you are saved or damned by your own choice. Please note that God makes that choice possible. WIthout God there is no choice, only a lake of fire.Going back to my original question. "If Bob is saved and Jim is not, what has made the difference?"
According to your above answer in post # 656 the difference is Bob's and Jim's choice or will.
According to your answer in post # 654 it is God\Jesus\Holy Spirit.
Which is it?
God initiates we respond. God starts it so without out God, there is nothing. Jim and Bob both respond to God, one for God, one against. The difference is one surrendered into God's plan for salvation and the other rejected it.
What is the difference between me an them? It is God.
Whether God gave me a heart that would respond to Him and did not do so for them, I don't know.
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