Why do Calvinists....

bradfordl · Apr 30, 2007

You ask me to believe that God unchangeably ordained all these things from the beginning of time. Why? "Becasue God is sovergien and He can." "It is all done for God to show His glory."

We don't ask you to believe anything. Most here have just stated the biblical position that this is so. You don't like it, so you reject it.

As such, I don't think that God would unchangeably ordain all that is going on in the world. All that we see around us is far more evil than Holy. What ever must be before the end times will be. But I cannot blame God for the state of the world right now. It reaks of Satan, not Jesus.

You have this opinion because (A) you refuse to accept that God can ordain all events and yet hold the participants responsible. Romans 9 has been qouted here ad infinitum to demonstrate this to you, but you obstinately deny it. Like a kid with fingers in his ears yelling over and over "I can't hear you!" so he won't have to hear what he doesn't like. (B) You have an overinflated view of humanity (and yourself) that derives from a delusional arrogance. And (C) a low view of God and His holiness that can't apprehend that Adam's sin alone was sufficient to warrant a curse that extends into eternity and brought misery upon all of creation. Such was the severity of Adam's affront to His creator... all creation cursed, all humanity rightfully deserving of eternal hell. If that is true then how do these evils in the world, that you suppose couldn't come from the hand of God, compare to it? Which is worse? This?:

Look at the world around us. We have a president who launhed our country into war for oil and claimed he was doing so because he is a good christian and God told him too. We have abortion clinics in every major city across the world. In some countries, abortion is the only form of birth control used. We have people marching into schools and shooting whoever they see. Did you see the several 20/20 episodes where they arrested a bunh of men for trying to have sex with 14 year old girls? We have MBLA. We have homeless people freezing to death in the winter because the shelters are full.

To be sure, there is a lot of good things going on around us to. But look at all the bad. Record oil company profits and our poor and elderly can't afford to heat their homes during the winter. A divorce rate that is the same in the church as it is within the culture at large.

Or Hell?
So it appears that even the horrific state of the world today and throughout history is an act of mercy. We deserve to be born into hell, but instead He ordained that we are born into this world so that He can demonstrate His Mercy through the redeeming for Himself a people by the sacrifice of His own Son.

When viewed from that perspective, we deserve worse than all the wickedness in the world. And we know that it will all be defeated, and it will all be paid for, either in hell for the unregenerate, or was at the cross for those He has redeemed.

GrinningDwarf · Apr 30, 2007

Boxmaker said:
That is a hard question to answer. I struggled with the Trinity for a long time. Once I saw the multi-dimensional nature of God it allowed my mind to settle the issue.

I think this is part of the problem. You struggled with the Trinity...which many people do...because it contained seemingly contradictory elements. How could Jesus be fully God and fully man? How could God exist as one but three simultaneously? However...the Scriptures declare that this is so. You didn't fully accept it until you found a model that you could wrap your mind around fully.

The same issue exists with God's sovereignty. The Scriptures declare that God is soveriegn...and man is still responsible for his actions!! How can this be? You just won't accept it because you have no model that will correlate these declarations of Scripture.

But I also have a slightly different belief about man. I believe that we were created in God's image. Being created in God's image allows man to understand God, not fully, but enough to understand His plan for man and for each of us inparticular.

You aren't the first with this view. Have you read much about Pelagius? Or Cassian? I used to hold to the semi-Pelagian view that I found out were first proposed by Cassian.

As such, I don't think that God would unchangeably ordain all that is going on in the world. All that we see around us is far more evil than Holy. What ever must be before the end times will be. But I cannot blame God for the state of the world right now. It reaks of Satan, not Jesus.

Well...we don't blame God for it, either. Read Romans 9:19-24

I really feel that we are starting to talk in circles here.

Boxmaker · Apr 30, 2007

GodsElect said:
Read Psalm 8?

1 O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!

2 Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

3When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen
Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!

This psalm is giving PRAISE to HOW SOVEREIGN God is in His creation. And also praise to His ordaining hand of power. Do you know that all your are Boxman, is PRIDEFULL DUST!

So you think God is and old man the sits in heaven and makes something and has no control over its outcome?

I don't think so!

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

That's right He works ALL THINGS according to the council of HIS OWN WILL! It is clear that you cannot wrap your, PRIDEFULL DUST of an exsistance, around the thought of such an ALMIGHTY GOD! I am truly sorry!

WRONG PRESUPPOSITION, I would expect nothing more said from PRIDEFULL DUST!

Romans 3: 11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.[b]
13  Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;

And there are many more scriptures that would not only show that you are wrong for thinking this, but also how much you really are a speck of PRIDEFULL DUST!

Gotta go for now I will give you those scriptures later!

You seem to think that I don't believe that God works things out according to His will. That is not true. The only point we differ is the when. You believe that God had to settle everything that would ever happen before He could create anything. I think God is more active than that. We find ourselves in situations that are a result of living in a fallen and cursed creation. What do you do? IF you choose to go it alone then God lets you go it alone. If you choose to turn contol over to God then God will work things out according to His will and turn the bad to good. I believe that even though I face the very real possibility that I may become a widow at a far younger age than I ever dreamed possible. None the less, I trust God.

Boxmaker · Apr 30, 2007

GrinningDwarf said:
I think this is part of the problem. You struggled with the Trinity...which many people do...because it contained seemingly contradictory elements. How could Jesus be fully God and fully man? How could God exist as one but three simultaneously? However...the Scriptures declare that this is so. You didn't fully accept it until you found a model that you could wrap your mind around fully.

I accepted it, I just didn't understand it. Now I have something that lends a little better understanding to it. It is probably an inperfect understanding and it is not something I ever offer as a Biblical truth. It is a speculation of my own that helps me.

GrinningDwarf said:
The same issue exists with God's sovereignty. The Scriptures declare that God is soveriegn...and man is still responsible for his actions!! How can this be? You just won't accept it because you have no model that will correlate these declarations of Scripture.

I do not agree with how Calvinism definces the sovereignty of God. I do not see the the Calvinistic deffinition of sovereignty support by scripture. Calvinism sees God's soverergnty as God ordaining everything that ever has, is or ever will happen since before time began. This presents a problem so the calvinist adds a sentence that absolves God for ordaining things that are, in fact, evil.

God does not need to have unchangeably ordained everything that ever has, is or will happen to be sovereign. God is so sovereign that His will will be done regardless of what man does to help or hinder.

We have a fundimental difference with the definition of sovereign. While I see a convincing argument for predestined salvation, I do not see anything that leads me to believe that everything that happens was ordained before the world was born.

GrinningDwarf · Apr 30, 2007

Boxmaker said:
While I see a convincing argument for predestined salvation,

Wow!! Is that some progress?

I took George's book to work today and I'm trying to squeeze a page or two in here and there between fish feeds. (I'm a fish farmer.)

cygnusx1 · Apr 30, 2007

Boxmaker said:
I accepted it, I just didn't understand it. Now I have something that lends a little better understanding to it. It is probably an inperfect understanding and it is not something I ever offer as a Biblical truth. It is a speculation of my own that helps me.

I do not agree with how Calvinism definces the sovereignty of God. I do not see the the Calvinistic deffinition of sovereignty support by scripture. Calvinism sees God's soverergnty as God ordaining everything that ever has, is or ever will happen since before time began. This presents a problem so the calvinist adds a sentence that absolves God for ordaining things that are, in fact, evil.

God does not need to have unchangeably ordained everything that ever has, is or will happen to be sovereign. God is so sovereign that His will will be done regardless of what man does to help or hinder.

We have a fundimental difference with the definition of sovereign. While I see a convincing argument for predestined salvation, I do not see anything that leads me to believe that everything that happens was ordained before the world was born.

As soon as you submit that God permits any evil act , whatever that act is , you submit God in one VERY REAL sense has willed it , sorry but to to deny this is to deny both logic and an all knowing , Sovereign , RULING God!

Boxmaker · Apr 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
As soon as you submit that God permits any evil act , whatever that act is , you submit God in one VERY REAL sense has willed it , sorry but to to deny this is to deny both logic and an all knowing , Sovereign , RULING God!

I think you are saying that God does ordain evil acts and that if God didn't ordain evil acts then God would not be sovereign. Is that an accurate para-phrase of your post?

cygnusx1 · Apr 30, 2007

Boxmaker said:
I think you are saying that God does ordain evil acts and that if God didn't ordain evil acts then God would not be sovereign. Is that an accurate para-phrase of your post?

let us take a step back , do you agree God permits evil , yes or no ?

Boxmaker · Apr 30, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
let us take a step back , do you agree God permits evil , yes or no ?

Yes.

bradfordl · May 1, 2007

Have at it, Cyg. Most of the regulars on this thread are probably feeling like I do about it:

cygnusx1 · May 1, 2007

bradfordl said:
Have at it, Cyg. Most of the regulars on this thread are probably feeling like I do about it:

Hi Brad I am much too laid back to "have at it" , I get too depressed to argue , just show a few pointers and leave men to their destiny.

cygnusx1 · May 1, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Yes.

So in your mind how does GOD permitting evil , which you agree with , remove God's will from evil ?

Boxmaker · May 1, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
So in your mind how does GOD permitting evil , which you agree with , remove God's will from evil ?

Yes.

As the Bible says, God created evil. I think He created the potential for evil by giving man free will. It is not unlimited free, but is free within the bounds set by God. Adam bought Satan's great lie and wanted to become light God by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam sined and evil entered the world. That evil is by man's will and unregenerant men's wills are apposed to God. God does not direct or ordain their evil acts in any way. He permits them.

He permits them is the same way I permit my daughter to do things that I know will result in a skinned knee. I tell her not to ride her bike on the gravel because it could slip and cause her to fall and get scrapped up. I could easily prevent her from riding on the gravel by taking the bike. Instead, I permit her to disobey me and ride her bike on the grave. It slips out from under her and she gets all scraped up. Next time I tell her not to do something because she might get hurt, she listens.

God permits us to sin because it reveals our great need for a savior.

Boxmaker · May 1, 2007

bradfordl said:
Have at it, Cyg. Most of the regulars on this thread are probably feeling like I do about it:

Am I dead horse because I refuse to see things your way or because your way of explaining things fails to persuade?

Side Bar: Why do you get so aggravated about me challenging your beliefs? Consider: this forum is a form of witnessing and you are witnessing to me. Your witness to me is that I am of no more use than a dead horse. Yet, in your view, God ordained this thread and your part in it. Is it not a privilege that God is using you to witness to me? Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

cygnusx1 · May 1, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Yes.

As the Bible says, God created evil. I think He created the potential for evil by giving man free will. It is not unlimited free, but is free within the bounds set by God. Adam bought Satan's great lie and wanted to become light God by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam sined and evil entered the world. That evil is by man's will and unregenerant men's wills are apposed to God. God does not direct or ordain their evil acts in any way. He permits them.

He permits them is the same way I permit my daughter to do things that I know will result in a skinned knee. I tell her not to ride her bike on the gravel because it could slip and cause her to fall and get scrapped up. I could easily prevent her from riding on the gravel by taking the bike. Instead, I permit her to disobey me and ride her bike on the grave. It slips out from under her and she gets all scraped up. Next time I tell her not to do something because she might get hurt, she listens.

God permits us to sin because it reveals our great need for a savior.

so you agree God permits evil !

Do you also agree that God permits sin ?

Boxmaker · May 1, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
so you agree God permits evil !

Do you also agree that God permits sin ?

Well, since sin IS evil then I have to go with yes.

bradfordl · May 1, 2007

Am I dead horse because I refuse to see things your way or because your way of explaining things fails to persuade?

You are not a dead horse as far as I can tell. The reference is to the old saying, "beating a dead horse", which implies the discussion has been fruitless. I was inviting Cyg to have a go at the conversation, because it looks like no one else has yet to penetrate your entrenched incoherence. And I have no desire to have you see things my way, my hope is that you would see things the way the Bible plainly describes them.

Side Bar: Why do you get so aggravated about me challenging your beliefs? Consider: this forum is a form of witnessing and you are witnessing to me. Your witness to me is that I am of no more use than a dead horse. Yet, in your view, God ordained this thread and your part in it. Is it not a privilege that God is using you to witness to me? Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Oh, please, Box. Again, I have not said you are a dead horse. Why so sensitive all of a sudden? You haven't challenged my beliefs. You have gone round and round incoherently defending an unscriptural position for over 600 posts. So it seems as though the discussion is going nowhere. You concede that your position makes no sense (I'll dig up the old posts if you want), then go on clinging to them in the face of clear, logical exegesis of scripture to the contrary.

I wonder why you keep going at it? I suspect that the Spirit is opening your eyes, and you're wrestling with it. We all have done that. And yes, that is predetermined, just as this thread is, for a good purpose in God's providence. And He doesn't go to all that trouble for a dead horse. Or to paraphrase, Are you not worth more than many dead horses?

Peace

Boxmaker · May 2, 2007

bradfordl said:
You are not a dead horse as far as I can tell. The reference is to the old saying, "beating a dead horse", which implies the discussion has been fruitless. I was inviting Cyg to have a go at the conversation, because it looks like no one else has yet to penetrate your entrenched incoherence. And I have no desire to have you see things my way, my hope is that you would see things the way the Bible plainly describes them.

Oh, please, Box. Again, I have not said you are a dead horse. Why so sensitive all of a sudden? You haven't challenged my beliefs. You have gone round and round incoherently defending an unscriptural position for over 600 posts. So it seems as though the discussion is going nowhere. You concede that your position makes no sense (I'll dig up the old posts if you want), then go on clinging to them in the face of clear, logical exegesis of scripture to the contrary.

I wonder why you keep going at it? I suspect that the Spirit is opening your eyes, and you're wrestling with it. We all have done that. And yes, that is predetermined, just as this thread is, for a good purpose in God's providence. And He doesn't go to all that trouble for a dead horse. Or to paraphrase, Are you not worth more than many dead horses?

Peace

I do not recall conceeding that my position makes not sense. I honestly don't think I did because I think my position makes more sense.

cygnusx1 · May 2, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Well, since sin IS evil then I have to go with yes.

OK , so if God permits an evil act , a sin , could God intervene at any moment and stop the sin ?

Boxmaker · May 2, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
OK , so if God permits an evil act , a sin , could God intervene at any moment and stop the sin ?

As your question implies, yes, God has that ability.

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