Why do Calvinists....

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

GodsElect said:
God created and is in control of EVERYTHING! Even how fast your fingernails grow, how fast your hair grows, even when you get it cut!

God made good and evil, made man, made satan!

However, just because He created satan, satan tempts man of evil, that's what he was made for. But MAN (ADAM) that was created with UTTER(TOTAL) FREE WILL commited the ACT OF SIN, thus, MAN is the AUTHOR of it, PERIOD! Not GOD! And MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT! NOT GOD!

Are you saying that God is not in control of everything? Your statement implies that Satan is not under God's control.

Take a look at Job. Satan had to ask God's permission before he could do anything to Job. Once God had given that permissioni He did not dictate to Satan exactly what Satan would do. Satan was free to do as he wanted within the limits set by God.

I am struck by how many people have been telling me that God is responsible for everything except sin. If that is true, God is not responsible for everything is He.

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

GodsElect said:
Box, Do you think God is going to be MAD at the calvinist to say that "God is FULLY and sovereignly in control of His creation? Do you think I will be sent to hell for this?

No. Do you think I will go to hell because I don't share your belief?

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

I am struck by how many people have been telling me that God is responsible for everything except sin. If that is true, God is not responsible for everything is He.

Box, you have been told many times there is a difference between ordaining a thing and being responsible for its commission. You want to cling to the idea that there is no difference. But to reiterate, no God is not responsible for all things. Yes, God has ordained all things.

Brad

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

bradfordl said:
Box, you have been told many times there is a difference between ordaining a thing and being responsible for its commission. You want to cling to the idea that there is no difference. But to reiterate, no God is not responsible for all things. Yes, God has ordained all things.

Brad

or·dain
1.to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon.
2.to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.: to ordain a new type of government.
3.to decree; give orders for: He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted.
4.(of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine: Fate had ordained the meeting. verb (used without object)
5.to order or command: Thus do the gods ordain.
6.to select for or appoint to an office.
7.to invest someone with sacerdotal functions.
re·spon·si·ble
1.answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management (often fol. by to or for): He is responsible to the president for his decisions.
2.involving accountability or responsibility: a responsible position.
3.chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually fol. by for): Termites were responsible for the damage.
4.having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action: The defendant is not responsible for his actions.
5.able to discharge obligations or pay debts.
6.reliable or dependable, as in meeting debts, conducting business dealings, etc.
7.(of a government, member of a government, government agency, or the like) answerable to or serving at the discretion of an elected legislature or the electorate.

Of the definition available for the words, the most fitting for ordain are 2, 3, 4 and 5. For responsible, the moste fitting definitions seem to be 1, 2, 3 and 4.

To ordain is to give the orders for something. That means you are responsible for it because of definition 1 of the word responsible - it is within your power or control to ordain that something be done.

I have been told many times that there is a difference. It seems to me that that difference is contrived. God is in control of whatsoever happens or He is not. Which is it?

GodsElect · Apr 4, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Are you saying that God is not in control of everything? Your statement implies that Satan is not under God's control.

C'mon man!I think everything just FLYS right over your head! No, actually it says the exact opposite! You just think it says what you want it to mean, because it came from the mouth of a calvinist. I think that is your biggest problem! As i said...

Godselect said: satan tempts man of evil, that's what he was made for.

Satan IS ON A LEASH!

Being the creator of evil does NOT make you the author of SIN! You still dont get that Adam and Eve Had utter and total FREEDOM OF THE WILL! Whereby, they could FREELY CHOOSE to PLEASE or NOT TO PLEASE God! God did not force Adam to sin, However created the evil that would tempt Adam. Then Adam was FREE to EAT or NOT EAT of the tree! When Adam ate of the tree We LOST all ability to FREELY PLEASE GOD. In order that mercy be shown to His creation, SIN was something that MUST HAVE had to enter the world. God allowed SIN to enter the world by the FREE CHOICE of ADAM! Because Adam in the garden, had TOTAL FREE WILL to eat or not to eat of the tree! ADAM by his FREE CHOICE, POOR CHOICE, chose to directly go against the commandment of God, And yes God created the evil that would tempt Adam! He's God he can do this! I know you probably still don't get it though!

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

GodsElect said:
C'mon man!I think everything just FLYS right over your head! No, actually it says the exact opposite! You just think it says what you want it to mean, because it came from the mouth of a calvinist. I think that is your biggest problem! As i said...

Satan IS ON A LEASH!

Does God dictate every move Satan makes at the end of his leash?

GodsElect said:
Being the creator of evil does NOT make you the author of SIN! You still dont get that Adam and Eve Had utter and total FREEDOM OF THE WILL! Whereby, they could FREELY CHOOSE to PLEASE or NOT TO PLEASE God! God did not force Adam to sin, However created the evil that would tempt Adam. Then Adam was FREE to EAT or NOT EAT of the tree! When Adam ate of the tree We LOST all ability to FREELY PLEASE GOD. In order that mercy be shown to His creation, SIN was something that MUST HAVE had to enter the world. God allowed SIN to enter the world by the FREE CHOICE of ADAM! Because Adam in the garden, had TOTAL FREE WILL to eat or not to eat of the tree! ADAM by his FREE CHOICE, POOR CHOICE, chose to directly go against the commandment of God, And yes God created the evil that would tempt Adam! He's God he can do this! I know you probably still don't get it though!

I get it, but maybe not the way you want me too. Adam had total free will in the garden and he used it to choose to sin. hat resulted in mans fall. Mans fall did not remove our totally free will. We still have the ability to freely choose between that which is available to us such as salvation.

Remember Jesus and the rich man. The rich man came to Jesus and proclaimed that he was doing everything to follow Jesus and wanted to know what else he needed to do. Jesus confronted him with the truth that he needed to sell all his riches and give the money for the poor. The rich man went away shaking his head. The rich man was conronted with the truth and he chose to reject it. Jesus did not follow him and make him do it, He allowed the rich man to make the choice to reject the truth.

Free will still exists. The same free will that caused Adam to sin is the same free will that allows us to reject the truth even after God has opened our hearts to His truth.

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

For the millionth time:

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

The purpose of creation is to glorify God. In our flesh that sounds arrogant of Him. Why would He create so many humans and ordain so much history for that purpose? The only answer to that would be that it is what is necessary to fully display His glory, and it is right for Him to do so because it is right for His glory to be displayed.

You're not alone in wrestling with the problem of evil, and from eyes that do not accept God's full sovereignty it appears to be a paradox, or an inconsistency, as you state above. But I can assure you from experience that you will get nowhere in trying to resolve that problem until you do accept God's full sovereignty. There's too much scripture, such as that above, and those where you are told every hair of your head is counted, and where you are told that only those whom were chosen before the foundations of the world are His, and those that tell you that His counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure, and that the lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord, that He declares the end from the beginning, that the LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil, that only His sheep hear His voice, etc., etc., etc...., to deny this truth. Believe that first, then you will be able to approach the problem of evil from the right perspective.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

SDG,

Brad

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

bradfordl said:
For the millionth time:

The purpose of creation is to glorify God. In our flesh that sounds arrogant of Him. Why would He create so many humans and ordain so much history for that purpose? The only answer to that would be that it is what is necessary to fully display His glory, and it is right for Him to do so because it is right for His glory to be displayed.

You're not alone in wrestling with the problem of evil, and from eyes that do not accept God's full sovereignty it appears to be a paradox, or an inconsistency, as you state above. But I can assure you from experience that you will get nowhere in trying to resolve that problem until you do accept God's full sovereignty. There's too much scripture, such as that above, and those where you are told every hair of your head is counted, and where you are told that only those whom were chosen before the foundations of the world are His, and those that tell you that His counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure, and that the lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord, that He declares the end from the beginning, that the LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil, that only His sheep hear His voice, etc., etc., etc...., to deny this truth. Believe that first, then you will be able to approach the problem of evil from the right perspective.

SDG,

Brad

God has the right to create whatever He will from the clay. Dose the Glory of our potter require more vessles to be created for distruction?

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

God has the right to create whatever He will from the clay. Dose the Glory of our potter require more vessles to be created for distruction?

Aah! The immensity of it all begins to soak in, and it is overwhelming isn't it? And here is the awesome truth; His glory requires exactly as many vessels prepared for destruction as there will be souls in hell to be properly displayed. Who prepared them? God! Why did He prepare them? To show His wrath against sin! Struggle with that in your human finiteness if you wish, but the scriptures say it is true.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

When will you begin to see God as ALMIGHTY GOD, instead of the anthropomorphic limited being you portray in your anemic, man-centered theology? God didn't create this world to serve man or because He was lonely for a companion. He created it to show forth His GLORY, and as belittling as it may feel to you, man is just a component of that purpose, nothing more. Enlightenment arrogance may desire otherwise, but that is immaterial.

SDG,

Brad

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

bradfordl said:
Aah! The immensity of it all begins to soak in, and it is overwhelming isn't it? And here is the awesome truth; His glory requires exactly as many vessels prepared for destruction as there will be souls in hell to be properly displayed. Who prepared them? God! Why did He prepare them? To show His wrath against sin! Struggle with that in your human finiteness if you wish, but the scriptures say it is true.

When will you begin to see God as ALMIGHTY GOD, instead of the anthropomorphic limited being you portray in your anemic, man-centered theology? God didn't create this world to serve man or because He was lonely for a companion. He created it to show forth His GLORY, and as belittling as it may feel to you, man is just a component of that purpose, nothing more. Enlightenment arrogance may desire otherwise, but that is immaterial.

SDG,

Brad

I have never denied that God is Almight God. I have never denied that God is responsible for my salvation. I know that without Jesus there is no hope for salvation. I know that that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. I know that God is control and works His will despite man.

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

I have never denied that God is Almight God. I have never denied that God is responsible for my salvation. I know that without Jesus there is no hope for salvation. I know that that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. I know that God is control and works His will despite man.

I'm glad to hear it, Box. I assume the tiny reservation is expressed in the word "despite", but you'll have to clarify that for me. But since you concede that God is in control, how do you differentiate between that control and responsibility seeing you reject the distinctions of calvinist theology in that matter?

Brad

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

This is post #472. Let's start a pool. Not sure what the prize might be, but I'm betting that ol' Box'll be convinced of the doctrines of sovereign grace by post #550. Any other guesses?

I suppose the best prize will be seeing a brother finally have his head cleared to experience the assurance that comes with comprehension of God's total sovereignty over all things. That we can trust in Him rather than having to rely in any way on ourselves.

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

bradfordl said:
I'm glad to hear it, Box. I assume the tiny reservation is expressed in the word "despite", but you'll have to clarify that for me. But since you concede that God is in control, how do you differentiate between that control and responsibility seeing you reject the distinctions of calvinist theology in that matter?

Brad

God's control does not require that God predestines whatsoever happens. We looked at the the Sara and Abraham and their two sons. God promised to give Sara a son. Sara got impatient and gave her hand maiden to Abraham and they begat Esau, the first born. But God was going to bless Jacob, the second son, against all tradition. Gods plan was always to bless Jacob. Sara tried to help God along with His promise and messed things up. In spite of Sara's help, Gods will was done. How might things have worked out if Sara had been patient? In nay case, God was able to make His glory known despite what Sara did. God works all things to His will. And He doesn't have to predestine it. He is able work out His no matter what "obstacles" we put in His path.

God does not need to have every detail predestined to make sure things go His way. God is so almighty that His will will ultimately be done.

Remember the Lords Prayer? Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. What does that mean? It sounds like God has not imposed His will upon the Earth as He has in Heaven. It is a prayer for God to take back the Earth and establish His kingdom.

The difference between control and responsability is similar to a parent child relationship. We are responsible for their well being, for meeting there basic needs. We control them in a broad sense. They have to go to bed when we say, get in the car, bursh their teeth and make their beds. Outside of that, which is fairly small part of day to day life, we do not dictate how they play or what they play with. They make choices based on whats available to them though they sill scream sometimes for things that aren't available to them.

God is responsible for our needs and He does provide for them, including a plan for salvation. He is in control of the world and makes sure that event unfold as He needs. He intervenes when required as required. But He does not control every action and thought of every person. He does not need too to mantain control of His plan. The end of that plan is spelled out in Revelations. God has told us what He is going to do. What He going to do is completely independant of what men are doing at the time.

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

God's control does not require that God predestines whatsoever happens. We looked at the the Sara and Abraham and their two sons. God promised to give Sara a son. Sara got impatient and gave her hand maiden to Abraham and they begat Esau, the first born. But God was going to bless Jacob, the second son, against all tradition.

My brother, I know you meant to say Ishmael and Isaac, not Esau and Jacob (they came later). But to address your point, do you really believe that God did not predestine those events? Especially since it was an example of being born of flesh versus born of the Spirit (Gal 4:22-26)? If Joseph's brothers meant their wicked acts for evil, but as the scripture says, God meant them for good (Gen. 50:20). Meant would indicate prior intent, would it not? What Sarah did out of unbelief, God intended for an example He would use later.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Man's responsibility, God's ordaining.

SDG,

Brad

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

He intervenes when required as required.

That is modified deism, Box, and contradicts scripture:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Boxmaker · Apr 4, 2007

bradfordl said:
My brother, I know you meant to say Ishmael and Isaac, not Esau and Jacob (they came later). But to address your point, do you really believe that God did not predestine those events?

No, I do not.

bradfordl said:
Especially since it was an example of being born of flesh versus born of the Spirit (Gal 4:22-26)? If Joseph's brothers meant their wicked acts for evil, but as the scripture says, God meant them for good (Gen. 50:20). Meant would indicate prior intent, would it not? What Sarah did out of unbelief, God intended for an example He would use later.
Man's responsibility, God's ordaining.

SDG,

Brad

God has also promised to work things out for our own good. That does not imply predestination to me.

bradfordl · Apr 4, 2007

God has also promised to work things out for our own good. That does not imply predestination to me.

Again:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

All things means all things, Box. Do you disagree? You keep irrationally resisting the truth. I know it is difficult. I had friends, teachers, and people I love that rejected it back when I first began to understand it, and it was hard to accept that they were wrong about this. My idea of mankind was inflated by the world's philosophical influence. I thought it would not be fair for God to predestine salvation of an elect group He chose before their birth and not anyone else. I thought that God had created all this for man, and that He was lovingly and longingly watching things transpire, looking out for us and hoping we would love Him and accept His open offer to save us all. Problem is that this picture of God is not what scripture describes.

You have seen all the scripture in this thread that show that, that portray God as all-powerful, predestinating, and not in need of man's approval for anything. You need to understand that this god you are describing is not the God of the Bible. You may have gone on in your ignorance and perhaps been excused, but God ordained that you would come to this forum and hear all these things, and you've heard them thoroughly. There comes a point in this where ignorance is no longer an excuse, and you are coming to, or are at, that point. Putting on blinders and pretending you don't see this awesome and fearful truth will no longer work for you. You will either come to believe the truth of scripture or "decide" to reject it outright. And by that you will be forced to reject scripture, which is not a place you want to come to.

So my advice to you is to at minimum say to yourself as David did:

Psa 139:1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

And stop arguing against the Word of God. It is a futile endeavor and fraught with danger.

SDG,

Brad

GodsElect · Apr 4, 2007

Box, still sounds like you still want to have a god that sets things in motion then lets the "Clay" choose how the rest of things may go, then alters and changes the way things go to make them work "for the good" as you say.

That sounds like a very busy and frustrated god don't you think?

I am not saying that God couldn't have created things that way if He wanted to, but it's not taught that way in the light of scripture.

And further, we're talking about a God, who before time began, was OUTSIDE OF TIME, heck, even created time itself!
Do you think that, being outside of time, in ALL ETERNITY PAST didn't plan for the way that HIS CREATION, sun, moon, stars, orbits of planets, earth, animals, humans, and everything eles I didn't mention, couldn't plan and predestine and ordain and create everything that is and shall come to pass?
Is not God the alpha and omega, the begining and the end of all things, the great archectect?

It is my God who had from all eternity past plenty of time to pre-plan, plan, ordain, predestine, create, and finish His work before the FIRST SECOND OF TIME CLICKED to begin a measly 6000 or whatever years on earth compaired to an ETERNITY to create creation! That's the God ALMIGHTY we proclaim! Do you think that God would do such a thing as let His creation take any path than that which He had already planned from begining to END?

If you do then that is surely a VERY FRUSTRATED god indeed! That the course of man's actions cannot go according to his original plan.

His ORIGINAL PLAN is perfect! and will BE COMPLETED however He has planned it from the beginning! We do not have a God who lets His "Clay" dictate His actions! His Sovereign WILL dictates OUR actions. For His own Glory and sovereign purposes and perfect will from the BEGINNING TO THE END!!! PERIOD!!! GET OVER IT!!!And I think this is a God that you dont want!!! It is very clear now!

My God is much more greater than a finite human mind that cannot phathom a God that is smarter than to create something and be therefore at the whims of His creation. At the whims of "whosoever will"

GrinningDwarf · Apr 5, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Ultimatly, we are convicted by our own sins, not Adams.

I don't think Paul would agree with you:

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

RO 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

And, anyway...if you don't think it's fair that we are held responsible and accountable for Adam's sin, then how could it be possible for Jesus to have died (or paid the price; been held accountable) for our sin?

GrinningDwarf · Apr 5, 2007

Boxmaker said:
That is because, functionally, there is no difference.

If God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, whatever name you give it (ordained, responsible, predestined, predetermined, etc) it is functinally the same. If there is a difference then God did not {insert declaritive of choice here} whatsoever comes to pass.

You cannot have it both ways. Either God by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass or He didn't. Which is it? If God did, then the second cause MUST BE the same as the first cause. If He didn't, then the second cause is outside ofGod's direct control meaning God is no longer sovergien. Which is it?!

You're still letting your ingrained twentieth-century philosophies get the better of you when they clearly contradict what the Scripture says. You should see my copy of Chosen By God. All kinds of highlights and margin notes where I knew Sproul was wrong...only to be crossed out and corrected two years later when I finally realized that..doggone it!...he was right!!

I know this is hard to figure out. So is the Trinity.

Why do Calvinists....

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