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Why do Calvinists....

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GodsElect

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Boxmaker said:
I see man as a being created by God to respond to Gods will, not be dominated by it.
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LOL. This shows why you are like Eve in the Garden of Eden. Declaring that you will NOT be dominated by God's will and so even YOU want to be the one who eats of the tree of good and evil and to govern your own will. Sorry, even your thinking this way is governed by God!

"I want my free will!"

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
 
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Boxmaker

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Obviously Eve was not dominated by God's will in the garden. If she had been, then Adam would not have sinned and we would not be where we are today.

I also note you are still accusing me of things that are not true.
 
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FreeInChrist2

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BOXMAKER, I don’t know if you care to read this, but I pray this will help.

Nahum 1:2-9 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it. 6 Who can stand before His indignation? And who can endure the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, And the rocks are thrown down by Him. 7 The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble; And He knows those who trust in Him. (HIS WORD) 8 But with an overflowing flood He will make an utter end of its place, And darkness will pursue His enemies. 9 What do you conspire against the LORD? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time.

Isaiah 55:8-11 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the LORD, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

BOXMAKER, We agree that there are many things hard to understand, but that which is revealed in scripture is what we must believe. Just because we don’t understand, does not give us the right to call Gods word into question. Should we find supposed contradictions in scripture, would only mean that we are accusing God of being in error. We should rather be looking into our own hearts and realizing that we must be the ones in error and on our knees with great tears for our accusations against His holy truth, crying out for mercy and greater understanding least we find ourselves condemned for our handling the word deceitfully…even unknowingly…we are without excuse…because God has given us His word for our learning…not mans opinion. To call Gods word, His motives, His purposes, His power, His justice, His love for His plan into question really shows that a person does not really believe in the God of scripture, but prefers a god of their own making, thus making Him a mans puppet of imagination.

So the hooker, the man who kills her, the adulter and the family he destroys, the child molester and the Columbine killers are all acting exactly the way God would have it. Sorry,.
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I believe GodsElect has found many of the appropriate scriptures to refute your claims as stated above…I just pray you are able to grasp the truth of the scriptures posted for you. So I would like to add these thoughts and verses.

Remember when Joseph was sold into slavery into Egypt by his own brothers…a wicked and sinful action, yes, Abraham was distraught for his whole life, because he loved Joseph. Yet Joseph became 2nd to the King of Egypt in time. Gen 50:19 Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God? 20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (Notice the text does not say all people).

I don't see God as appointing every evil deed that we do
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Even the evil which Joseph’s brothers sinned against him was ordained for the good of Gods purposes and His people. Even the evil that was perpetrated against Abraham and his whole household after they all came to Egypt was for a greater good… to be freed from under the tyranny of the Pharaoh, so that Gods chosen people Israel would call out to Him and for the destruction of Pharaoh in the Red Sea. And this process still continues to this day…evil for good…all ordained for Gods greater and eternal purpose for the sake of His Son, His people and His kingdom… not mans.

Gods ways are not mans ways, His every action is good, mans ways are always for self.

Besides, saying that everything that happens is Gods will would have to mean that God and Satan are one. God sets up all the evil so Satan would be just a name for Gods dark side.
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So I see you are learning the standard Arminian teachings, but the bible says…

36 Then the angel of the LORD went out, and killed in the camp of the Assyrians one hundred and eighty-five thousand; and when people arose early in the morning, there were the corpses—all dead.

1 Kings 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

I do expect you’ll come back with some other standard Arminian remark like…Oh that’s the God of the Old Testament. I pray you’ll understand the bible is all one testament of the triune God, Christ, and Holy Spirit, and is given for His children seeking the truth, not reading it for arguing against it. Is that what you do to your parents, try to find things to use against them?

I am concerned for your salvation and the things you are learning from the Arminian camp and pray you can see where you stand, at this time and if you were to die today.

1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, ‘Hear the word of the LORD!’” 3 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. 5 You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the LORD. 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD!’ But the LORD has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, ‘The LORD says,’ but I have not spoken.”
8 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you,” says the Lord GOD. 9 “My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD. 10 “Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace—and one builds a wall, and they plaster it with untempered mortar— 11 say to those who plaster it with untempered mortar, that it will fall.

I don’t know if there is anything else we can do for you?

Sincerely, FreeInChrist2

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Boxmaker

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Thank you for your concern about my salvation but you need not worry. Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. My faith is in Him and He has saved me just as He has you.

I do not disagree with most of what you posted. I do not question Gods word and I ask the Holy Spirit for guidance as I study. So far, that study has not changed my view.

Its funny you should mention Joseph. My wife went through breast cancer, a long drawn out battle. The book Job and the story of Joseph were very helpful during those times. But I saw them from a very different view point than you use here.

For us, Job and Joseph speak to God's promise of being faithful to us. Both Job and Joseph spent a lot of time in really bad situations. In both cases, they remaind faithful to God. In the end God was faithful to them and restored them. Cancer happened. We didn't choose it and God didn't send it upon my wife as some punishment for something. We live and a fallen creating and bad stuff happens. We did our very best to remain faithful to God. Our faith is stronger and my wife is in remission for which we praise God.
 
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Boxmaker

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Not true., I surrendered my God given free will back to He who gave it to me. My life is not for my will but for my Fathers will. Like Paul, I fall short, but God's will for my life is now the only will for my life.
 
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bradfordl

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Cancer happened. We didn't choose it and God didn't send it upon my wife as some punishment for something.
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So things just happen that are out of God's control? Trials that come to Christians are not "punishment". Jesus took all our punishment upon Himself. They may be chastisement, or they may also be the means by which God increases our faith and teaches us patience and trust. We do not always understand the why, or even appreciate the trial, but scripture tells us to "count it all joy". And God is in control of it all.

I thank God that your wife is in remission, and that your faith has been strengthened by the experience.
 
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Boxmaker

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This interesting discussion as made me take a long hard look at some things. I have been have some spirited discussions about universalism at the same time this thread has been going on, both on Christian Forums and other forums that are less concerned about being politically correct and more concerned about getting to the truth even if a few feathers get ruffled along the way.

There is a spectrum of beliefs that are based on the Bible. They seem to range from the extreme Calvinist point of view to the Universal salvation point of view. In broad terms, the extreme Calvinist view is that God is control of every second of our lives. Everything we say, do, think and feel has been predestined. Every thing that happens to us, good or bad (from our point of view) was ordained by God. God handpicks each of us for heaven or hell since the beginning of time.

On the other end of the spectrum is the universal salvation point of view. In broad terms, universalism holds that God is just to darned nice to let anybody suffer for eternity. People may go to hell for a time but they ultimately learn the error of their ways, accept Jesus while in the lake of fire and get their free pass to heaven.

Other beliefs fall some place in between these two end points. Some beliefs go off on tangents that are not related to the Bible or so alter the Bible as to render it useless. These are the cults.

Within the realm of Bible believing faiths, we are each guilty of making God over in our own image. For the Calvinist, God must be in control of everything or He just cannot be God. For the universalist, God must ultimately bring everybody, including Satan, into heaven again or God just couldn’t be God. Open Theists must have a God that allows free will or God just couldn’t be God. We all have our proof texts and we are all very good at ignoring the conundrums posed be verses that don’t exactly fit our perception of God. We spend a goodly amount of time arguing between ourselves about who is right, even rising to the point of proclaiming that those who do not agree with us are lost and un-saved.

These discussion all sharpen our beliefs. If we approach them with open hearts, God can even us teach us through these spirited discussions. But it still seems we are guilty of making God in our own image and then swearing that it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that revealed to us that our concept of God is right.
 
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FreeInChrist2

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1. Either… God is completely sovereign and His word is completely true and accurate with one interpretation and not dependant on man to be God. But man blows it.

2. Or… God is partially sovereign and His word is partially true and accurate with various interpretations and He must share His sovereignty partially with man. But man blows it.

3. Or…God is unable to be sovereign and His word is only a guidebook and is only true and accurate upon sovereign mans interpretation. But man blows it.

4. and...some just don't give a _ _ _ _!

Any others anyone?

So if all man can do is blow it...how's he going to stand before a Holy GOD? Choice to be elected... or... Elected to choose?


PS. BOXMAKER, we can rejoice with those whom rejoice and with those whom morn, we can morn. In awe...to hear & see God's sovereign control over all the events of your wife's situation, of the disease its self, it's remission, the doctors& technicians ability to perform their ordained duties and even the prayers God grants to be prayed on your wife's behalf for her good.
 
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GodsElect

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First, if it is "extreme" calvinism, that believes that God is control of everything then, so be it. It's simply the character of GOD! You won't find many that would say He is not in control of everything. Even outside the Calvinists view. It sure wouldn't be a very great god to worship that made a plan from begining to uhhh.... however it turns out in the end. I, and all of us "extreme" Calvinists believe that God is the Begining and the End, the starter and finisher of all things, The Alpha and Omega, The Great Architect. And what kind of Great Architect plans and designs something but is not in control of the outcome??? and leaves it up to us to make His decisions for Him to fullfill the outcome however we so choose? That would be to deny the sovereignty of the very God in which you proclaim.

Sovereignty

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sovereignty is the exclusive right to exercise supreme potlical (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over a geographic region, group of people, or oneself.


Matthew 10:29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

 Exodus 4:11 So the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.

1. Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

1 Peter 2:7-9 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Romans 9:20-21 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Romans 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, To this very day." 9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."

God IS in controll of everything!!!! Always has been!

For the Calvinist, God must be in control of everything or He just cannot be God.
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Would you want your God any other way??? But you dont even have a choice in that! He IS!


Open Theists must have a God that allows free will or God just couldn’t be God.
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Yes, this is a point that I have been wanting to convey to you but I don't know if you have recieved me or not.

We are not saying that you never HAD to make a choice to turn to God. We never say that you weren't willing and able to make the choice to choose God.

In your mind YES it was a "free will" decision.

But how was it that you became WILLING and ABLE to freely CHOOSE Christ??? Yes! you DID make a choice and willingly chose God. I did too! and so did eveyone here that has been speaking to you. WE ALL HAD TO MAKE THE CHOICE! So what made you choose Christ when you didn't have to?? You could have said, "Well it's all a bunch of mumbo jumbo religious stuff!" and willingly NOT come to God AT ALL. BUT WHY DID YOU WILLINGLY SAY YES! TO GOD!? What gave you the inclination to choose GOD when you could have rejected Him all of your life??? What was it that INFECTED YOUR HEART AND MIND that made you turn to Christ?????? Why did you CHOOSE God and SO MANY others (neighbors, family, friends, co-workers,ect.) do not! What makes YOU better than them!? Why did you CHOOSE God and the others have not!!???

The word of God has SO MANY answers to these questions if you would open your eyes to see them.

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

...^ This is why we have chose Christ and have been made willing and able to turn to Christ!

How were we able to make such a CHOICE!??? When we could have just continued to live a life of sin without repentance!? How were we made alive to see the things of God?

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

We are saved by Grace! Not by anything we do! My choices in life are filthy rags compared to a perfectly righteous GOD!...

....Wow! what AMAZING GRACE that He has made us alive so that we would choose Him! because He FIRST loved us! Even before we were born, before the foundation of the WORLD!...Man don't you see! its about HIS WILL! NOT ours!

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do forHis good pleasure.

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit , and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Deuteronomy 7:6 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 7:7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.

Numbers 16:5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him.

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.


1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world , therefore the world hates you.(children of God.)

Yes we have a will, but before we chose to serve God by Him first chosing us, just how FREE was your will when you lived a life of sin and trespasses and all unrepented of! The only freedom in choice was to SIN FREELY against GOD!

ONLY until He gave us that new life FIRST could we ever have responded positivly to His call and repent of our utter FILTH before Him.

Man, I really hope this gets across! May God grant the Ears to hear with!

Glory be to GOD!, Boxmaker, that he saved WRETCHED SINNERS like US! That He had to send His Son to DIE for such a filthy rotton wicked disgusting people!


But it still seems we are guilty of making God in our own image and then swearing that it was the guidance of the Holy Spirit that revealed to us that our concept of God is right.
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We have only made God in the image of which His word Gives us, and has revealed Himself to us through His word, and All Things are created, exsist, and are sustained by His word.

Romans 11:36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen
 
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Boxmaker

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Do you see the irony?
 
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Boxmaker said:
In broad terms, the extreme Calvinist view is that God is control of every second of our lives. Everything we say, do, think and feel has been predestined.
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You mean like this.........

Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Matthew 10:
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Genesis 18:
[14] Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Job 14:
[5] Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

Acts 13:
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Philippians 1:
[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Just in case you're wondering if man can possibly be guilty of sin if everything is appointed, tis so........

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Luke 22:
[22] And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Acts 4:
[24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Romans 9:
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
 
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Boxmaker

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RepentantSinner said:
Forgive me, but I don't see your irony. Please explain in more detail with scriptual proofs so that I may be enlightened.
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I posted a musing about how all of us are guilty of making God in our own image. We all assert that our truth is the only truth and we all have our proof texts, given to us by the Holy Spirit, to prove our point. GodsElect responded with a vigorus assertion that Calvinism is the only real truth and supported his assertion with several proof texts. His post was exactly in line with my post and it seems he never even paused to ponder what I said.

In point of fact, I'm proud of him. Faith requires that we hold to and defend the truth of scripture. He did a good job of doing just that.
 
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