Why did Jesus Leave?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jun 25, 2016

(true ekklesia, born again, set apart, unique on earth, in the body of Christ Jesus) are rare and valuable and saved from delusion by grace and faith through Jesus,
according to God the Creator , truly a sheer gift from God to men He calls and chooses.

Is anyone else besides ekklesia ever saved from delusion ?

HitchSlap · Jun 25, 2016

Deidre32 said:
Well, don't limit yourself.

I didn't. That's why I'm atheist.

It would seem that limiting yourself is the choce you have made.

Deidre32 · Jun 25, 2016

HitchSlap said:
I didn't. That's why I'm atheist.

It would seem that limiting yourself is the choce you have made.

It wasn't a choice, really.

I feel like we're playing chess.

HitchSlap · Jun 25, 2016

How is accepting something on faith, not a choice?

Checkmate.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jun 25, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Is anyone else besides ekklesia ever saved from delusion ?

Here's some samples from threads/ titles/ on this forum in the last hour --
(samples of deluded groups, for whatever length of time, from a few hours perhaps, to thousands of years ) >>
"neothink society", legalism, scepticism, "sexual perversion"
OR
in line with the op a little more : "Who is Jesus" and "Where is Jesus" ....
Not everybody can be right,
with so many different answers/ conclusions.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 25, 2016

Faith is more like trust than "the force" or willpower. Someone trusts something for a reason, one person may trust that a bridge is reliable to cross and uses it, other people may think it is rickety and say ... I don't trust that path, the bridge is too rickety and wobbly and I'm bound to fall over.
.
This is what faith is about, walking across a wobbly rickety bridge and then noting the laws of physics are different in the space where the bridge stands compared to where it was being observed from.
.
Trust and faith are subjective judgments, but that one person trusts and another does not it always follows that people have strong reasons one way or another .. especially when that bridge is a man who little is known of in a personal sense.
.
In the same way, no one is convinced by forceful arguments, trust comes because the person actually trusts .. and not for any other reason ... think about why you trust the people you do ... the reason for this is very much tied to the reason why people trust God ... somehow a being from an alternate dimension where the laws of physics are different from here .. made contact with people in a way that transformed their lives ... so they trust .. though it's really hard to explain ... experiencing it seems to be the main deal.

SteveB28 · Jun 26, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Do you know how many men have CLAIMED to be speaking for God, yet they are speaking perversely, they are opposed to God, they reject Jesus, and their only motive is to kill, to steal and to destroy ?
Have you found ANYTHING except the BIBLE to be truthful ?
Do you trust men to tell you what it says and what it means ? (men who lie to you)
(Or if not the Bible, any other document or work of men, even if they claim to be of God or any other source).
Did you read the Bible? (apparently not yet)
God says He curses men who trust in the flesh/ men who trust in men/ men who trust in idols/ men who have ANY other god besides the One True God. (DID you READ THAT YET?)
(sorry , no short cuts. It is a 3 month read at least (well, often anyway; perhaps the Bible could be read in a few days...) )....

Test Everything (God says). Don't trust men(flesh; nor even whole countries or the strenght of any of man's weapons nor any of man's armies) . (God says).

So, then, HOW could you possibly find out ANYTHING TRUE ? HOW CAN ANYONE ?

Stop running away from the question.

YOU say that the words of men are untrustworthy and wicked. Yet, you accept those words of men when you pick up your bible.

Why?

SteveB28 · Jun 26, 2016

amariselle said:
Claiming that a Christian's personal, spiritual experience is a "delusion" is certainly not a new suggestion.
That suggestion hardly explains how Christianity has survived for around 2,000 years however. Surely a mere delusion would have died out long ago.

Not necessarily. 2 billion people believe that a man named Mohammed took a midnight flight on a horse to heaven. They've been believing that for more than 1000 years. I'm sure that most people other than Muslims would consider that a delusion at best.

SteveB28 · Jun 26, 2016

Job8 said:
If the Bible was merely the words of men, why would anyone bother with it? The fact that it is the Word of God and is treated as such by millions speaks for itself.

Replace 'Bible' with 'Q'ran' and ask the same question.

Ana the Ist · Jun 26, 2016

Albion said:
Let's be clear. The objection to his Ascension (which I didn't make but only answered to) made the point that he would have had a 'better story' if he'd stayed around.

I went back to read the OP...and I didn't see him say that anywhere. That's partly why I found it so odd you would take this direction with your answer.

Would you like the opportunity to change it?

If you find that way of looking at the matter to be punk, I did too! I also found the particular argument that was presented to us to be unpersuasive.

Ana the Ist · Jun 26, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
And remember, the premise, the ops question,
may be null and void - assuming facts not in evidence today.
Thus, any answer that is based upon thinking the title/ op/ question is valid,
may be vain (empty) also......
"pretend" if that's the right word .....

What "facts" not in evidence today are you referring to?

Also if they don't have evidence...how do you know they are facts?

Job8 · Jun 26, 2016

SteveB28 said:
Replace 'Bible' with 'Q'ran' and ask the same question.

Not possible. Quran is a corruption of the Bible and Bible truth.

SteveB28 · Jun 26, 2016

Job8 said:
Not possible. Quran is a corruption of the Bible and Bible truth.

They were both written by men and millions live in adherence of both of them. Both make claims to be the 'word of God'. Those claims are nothing more than the 'words of man'.

amariselle · Jun 26, 2016

SteveB28 said:
Not necessarily. 2 billion people believe that a man named Mohammed took a midnight flight on a horse to heaven. They've been believing that for more than 1000 years. I'm sure that most people other than Muslims would consider that a delusion at best.

I suppose people can be "delusional" about all kinds of things then, however, it's not a word I would choose to ever use regarding someone's beliefs, even if I don't agree with them.

SteveB28 · Jun 26, 2016

amariselle said:
I suppose people can be "delusional" about all kinds of things then, however, it's not a word I would choose to ever use regarding someone's beliefs, even if I don't agree with them.

A delusion is usually described as a false belief, connected with a faulty assessment of reality. These would be almost the exact words used by a non-Muslim to describe Islamic faith.

devolved · Jun 26, 2016

Michael Collum said:
This is what faith is about, walking across a wobbly rickety bridge and then noting the laws of physics are different in the space where the bridge stands compared to where it was being observed from.

In which way would the laws of physics be different?

amariselle · Jun 26, 2016

SteveB28 said:
A delusion is usually described as a false belief, connected with a faulty assessment of reality. These would be almost the exact words used by a non-Muslim to describe Islamic faith.

"Delusion" is a loaded word that has become directly connected to and associated with mental illness. I would not use such a word to describe someone else's chosen faith just because I don't share that faith or agree with it.

Albion · Jun 26, 2016

Ana the Ist said:
I went back to read the OP...and I didn't see him say that anywhere. That's partly why I found it so odd you would take this direction with your answer.

Would you like the opportunity to change it?

First, it was you who described it as a "better story." I merely used your terminology when replying to you.

However, in the OP he did say the following:

devolved said:
It wouldn't make Christianity to be so doubtable. Every Thomas out there could visit a 2000 year old dude with holes in his hands and believe.

So, I believe that he did, in fact, make the very same point.

Albion · Jun 26, 2016

SteveB28 said:
A delusion is usually described as a false belief, connected with a faulty assessment of reality. These would be almost the exact words used by a non-Muslim to describe Islamic faith.

Fascinating. I've heard from many Christians describing their reasons for rejecting the religion of Islam. Not one of them took the approach you describe here.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 26, 2016

devolved said:
In which way would the laws of physics be different?

Apparently (from my experience anyway) trust can influence reality, how it influences reality depends on the personality of the person who trusts.
.
For example, I had trouble sleeping the night before, by trusting, I can release most of the effects of dreaming while awake ... but not all of them. There is a certain degree of "surrender" that is not beneficial for me personally so I don't do it. It doesn't entirely bypass the laws of physics but does reveal that more is possible by trusting than not trusting. Especially for those who have stepped onto the bridge.
.
What is written about in the bible about the Apostles and Jesus bypassing the laws of physics and proclaiming the new world by their faith enacting miracles and healing and even raising the dead to that degree ... can't say I'm there, but I can see how it's possible.
.
The laws of physics are different because even if on an incremental level, the basis of acting is towards a new creation, because when "born again" one becomes aligned with this "new creation" that isn't like this one so much... but is enough like it that the two can interact when one acts as the bridge of trust between the two.
.
I try to look at what I can quantify from my own experience at the very least, remembering it's a kingdom for the childlike helps in simplifying it at times and understanding how the laws of physics are very different much like a child's game of make believe adding substance in the end of it.

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