Why did God Punish Snakes Instead of Satan?

Dale · Jan 22, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
See also Isaiah 14 (especially verse 11-20) Lucifer in kjv is Satan in NIV 1984 Satan or the devil is referred to as the morning star..wanted to rise equal or above God...see verse 14.
See Jude 6 and II Peter 2:4 regarding fallen angels...perhaps others have already brought these passages up.
I have just finished my personal reading/study of the book of Ezekiel and Ezekiel 28:13-19 I, also, believe can be considered allegorical and describing Satan's fall. I do not know how it fits with the King of Tyre being addressed here but that he may have been acting under control of Satan. If so this shed additional light upon how we as humans and our kings and leaders can be controlled by the dominion of Satan...Daniel speaks of the many kings and leaders of nations and while perhaps this can be taken in a literal sense I believe it can be speaking about the wars in the heavenly realms also which Apostle Paul writes about in Ephesians 6:12.

ThroughFieryTrial,

You point to Isaiah 44 as evidence of a Fall of Lucifer or Fall of Satan.

Brandon Robbins is a Methodist minister. In the following video he explains why there is no Fall of Lucifer in Isaiah 44. This video is only 12 minutes and everything I want you to see is in the first few minutes, so this won’t take long.

Rev. Brandon Robbins
These 4 Myths About the Bible Have Been Proven Wrong
Also titled: “Not Lucifer, [and] The Real Lucifer

throughfiierytrial · Jan 22, 2024

Dale said:
ThroughFieryTrial,

You point to Isaiah 44 as evidence of a Fall of Lucifer or Fall of Satan.

Brandon Robbins is a Methodist minister. In the following video he explains why there is no Fall of Lucifer in Isaiah 44. This video is only 12 minutes and everything I want you to see is in the first few minutes, so this won’t take long.

Rev. Brandon Robbins
These 4 Myths About the Bible Have Been Proven Wrong
Also titled: “Not Lucifer, [and] The Real Lucifer

I will have to watch later...traveling by car with others. Thanks Dale!

throughfiierytrial · Jan 23, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
I will have to watch later...traveling by car with others. Thanks Dale!

Dale,
I was only taught by parents and teachers/preachers the very basics of Satan/the devil as a child and young adult I never knew what Scripture had to say about him. Isaiah and Ezekiel as well as the passages of NT found in 2 Peter 2 and Jude vs 6 (which confirm the interpretation of Isaiah and Ezekiel.) are the writings I discovered in my own reading as an adult. It is the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding of the Word...teachers have a place, but I have to be much more persuaded than what "proof" this video explanation provides to change my understanding and interpretation of who Satan is and his described work.
I hope you have also read through the Bible at some point without preconceived interpretations. and disregarding headers.This, in my opinion, is the best first read-through.

com7fy8 · Jan 24, 2024

Dale said:
Genesis says that the snake, or serpent, was an animal. It was smarter than other animals, but still an animal.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild
animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman,
“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the
garden’?
Genesis 3:1 NIV

Yes, it says the serpent was a wild animal. If I say that the snake in the Garden of Eden story is an animal many people think I an introducing some kind of newfangled revisionism. They have been told that the serpent is the Devil, Satan. At the end of the same chapter, God pronounces punishment on the serpent, to be borne by all other serpent until the end of time.

So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have
done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the
wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat
dust all the days of your life.”
Genesis 3:14 NIV

At the end of Genesis 3, the serpent is still a wild animal. The serpent is cursed to lose its legs, and crawl on the ground.

Everyone tells me that the Devil tempted Eve. I’m not sure if the Devil turned himself into a snake, or if he possessed the snake and spoke through the snake. Either way, this poses a question. If it was the Devil who tempted Eve, why did God punish the serpent?

I have always understood that the serpent was an animal creation. And Satan used the serpent to get to Eve.

But the created animals were "very good", right? So, Satan had to somehow change the very good snake so it did such evil.

And we have that there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2:2. What is very good did not get itself to do what is bad, I would say.

But after the serpent became corrupted spiritually, it wasn't very good, any more. So, God evaluated it accordingly.

Dale · Jan 24, 2024

d taylor said:
From Clear Bible answers . org

The serpent in the Garden of Eden was a real serpent. The Bible records:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. (Genesis 3:1)

It was a "beast of the field".

The word "subtil" generally means, "cunning and deceptive". This definition will not fit in here because the earth was still in a perfect state at that period of time. "Subtil" therefore meant clever.

When God created the animals on the sixth day God made everything "good".

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:25)

The Creator, our Lord Jesus Christ, told us that the serpent is a wise creature. He said:

Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (Matthew 10:16)

The serpent is the wisest after man; therefore the devil opted to use it as his medium. Since there was no human being around except Adam and Eve, the devil had to use his second best option.

When Eve fell to his trap, he no longer used the serpent to tempt Adam; Eve was his better bait! Didn't Jesus also say that "man" is now the agent that Satan uses to play his deception?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (Matthew 24:4)

The book of Genesis, which is the first book of the Bible, just mentions the serpent deceiving Eve, but does not mention the role of Satan there. In the last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation, God tells us in plain language who that old serpent or the serpent that appeared of old was.

The dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. (Revelation 20:2)

ONE MIGHT ASK: Did the devil come as a serpent or did the devil use a serpent medium? It is a valid question. A close look at the texts of Genesis reveals that the serpent was a real serpent, and the devil used it as his medium and spoke through it.

Please notice how the serpent was introduced and whose voice it is:

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1)

The first sentence talks about a real serpent of the field. The next sentence does not say "it" said, but rather, "he" said. That is a clue that the serpent was only the medium but someone else was speaking through it.

There are people, who believe that serpents were endowed with the power of speech and reason before sin entered the world, and the logic that is cited is-Eve did not express surprise when the serpent spoke and reasoned out things with her! Well, that is not true. Remember Balaam's ass that spoke?

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. (Numbers 22:28-30)

Is there any surprise expressed by Balaam when his ass spoke? Because there is no surprise on Balaam's part we can't conclude that asses were speaking during Balaam's time, can we? "The LORD opened the mouth of the ass" during Balaam's time and Satan opened the mouth of the serpent during the first temptation.

What a contrast between the two creatures that ever spoke! A serpent-the wisest-became the mouthpiece of the devil. An ass-the foolish beast-became the mouthpiece of the Lord! How beautiful this truth fits in:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. (1 Corinthians 1:27)

To further prove that serpents were not endowed with the power of speech is to look at the curse that the Lord pronounced on them.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. (Genesis 3:14)

Two curses are mentioned here. The first-"upon thy belly shalt thou go". Which means it was not going on its belly before. It was probably flying, as Isaiah talks about a "fiery flying serpent" (Isaiah 30:6). The second curse was-"Dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life", which means it was not eating dust before. If serpents were speaking before, then why aren't they speaking now? If they had this ability to speak before, and that bility was removed, why doesn't the Bible mention that? We see nothing of the removal of the power of speech in the curses pronounced on it.

ONE MIGHT SAY: Doesn't the serpent eat a lot of other things too, and not just dust? Yes it does. But notice what God did not say: God did not say, "Only dust shalt thou eat". Dust would be its food, but not its only food.

After cursing the serpent God curses the one behind the serpent, the devil himself.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Genesis 3:15)

This is the first prophecy of the coming Messiah. In fact if was declared to the devil first, and not to our first parents! There is no doubt that Jesus' coming to earth was to save believing mankind; but His battle was with the devil primarily, and not man.

ONE MIGHT ASK: Was it fair for God to curse the serpent which was only a medium? Wasn't it innocent? We need to realize that not only the medium of the devil was cursed but the entire creation on planet earth suffered. God told Adam:

Cursed is the ground for thy sake. (Genesis 3:17)

And Paul wrote:

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:22)

It really wouldn't have mattered as to which animal was used as a medium as the curse would not just come upon the medium only but on the entire creation.

ONE MIGHT ASK: Why did God permit the devil to use a medium? Well, the devil has to be given a fair chance to play his tricks. God had to permit him to use his methods in this Great War. If God cuts off his powers then the Satan would have accused God of monopoly in this great drama of life.

Dtaylor, quoting Clear Bible Answers: “It was probably flying, as Isaiah talks about a "fiery flying serpent" (Isaiah 30:6). ”

I’d like to point out that where the KJV says “fiery flying serpent,” the NIV says “darting snakes.” As is often the case, the KJV often misleads.

Even today, we say that someone is “flying” down the road when they are not flying at all, just traveling at great speed.

Dale · Jan 24, 2024

com7fy8 said:
I have always understood that the serpent was an animal creation. And Satan used the serpent to get to Eve.

But the created animals were "very good", right? So, Satan had to somehow change the very good snake so it did such evil.

And we have that there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2:2. What is very good did not get itself to do what is bad, I would say.

But after the serpent became corrupted spiritually, it wasn't very good, any more. So, God evaluated it accordingly.

Well, you have thought about it.

Dale · Jan 26, 2024

brakelite said:
While I have the utmost respect for anyone who through their great learning and intellect have written commentaries on scripture, they do not necessarily have the last word. Not so revelation was known in the 18th century, when Gill was alive. Same with later expositors, even those of today. We will always be learning even in eternity.
KJV Ezekiel 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Clearly, the King of Tyre was a type of Lucifer, and Ezekiel in his description of the King was informing us of the character and nature also Lucifer. The King of Tyre was not an anointed cherub. He was not in Eden. He did not walk up and down before the throne of God. He did not stand in reverent awe and protection over God's laws.

KJV Exodus 25:18-22
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

KJV Hebrews 8:1-5
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

In other words. The temple and it's furniture, the priesthood, it's services and all the feast days and offerings and sacrifices, all pointed to Christ Who would officiate as the ultimate High Priest in the true sanctuary in heaven upon which the earthly was a small scaled model. This includes the cherubim whose likeness was placed upon the ark. These 2 cherubim 'covered "the mercy seat... The throne of God under which was the foundation of all good government in heaven and earth... The law. Lucifer was one of those covering cherubs, second only to Christ Himself in rank and power.

Brakelite: “In other words. The temple and it's furniture, the priesthood, it's services and all the feast days and offerings and sacrifices, all pointed to Christ Who would officiate as the ultimate High Priest in the true sanctuary in heaven upon which the earthly was a small scaled model.”

I agree that many details of the Old Testament sacrifices point to the coming Messiah.

The part about a “true sanctuary in heaven” is not true. Nothing in the Bible tells us anything of the sort. The Ark and the Israelite Tabernacle was designed for a nomadic people. They were designed for a particular people at a particular time. The Ark was designed to be portable so that it could be carried by four priests, four strong men.

In fact, the Ark was destroyed, and God allowed it to be destroyed because it was time for the Israelites to get past it.

In those days, when your numbers have increased greatly in the land,” declares the LORD, “men will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It will never enter their minds or be remembered; it will not be missed, nor will another one be made.
Jeremiah 3:16 NIV

Note “it will not be missed.” Either the Ark had already been destroyed when Jeremiah relayed this message, or Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of the Ark. This would not have said this if there was an Ark in the heavenly realms before the Throne of God.

The same point is buttressed in Revelation. In Revelation, the Temple is sometimes the source of plagues, but this is symbolic. There will be no Temple, and no Tabernacle, in Eternity. In New Jerusalem:

I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Revelation 21:22 NIV

The Ark, the Tabernacle and the Temple are not eternal absolutes. They have a role to play, and when that role is finished, they will be gone, as Jeremiah told us.

Dale · Jan 26, 2024

brakelite said:
While I have the utmost respect for anyone who through their great learning and intellect have written commentaries on scripture, they do not necessarily have the last word. Not all revelation was known in the 18th century, when Gill was alive. Same with later expositors, even those of today. We will always be learning even in eternity.
KJV Ezekiel 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Clearly, the King of Tyre was a type of Lucifer, and Ezekiel in his description of the King was informing us of the character and nature also Lucifer. The King of Tyre was not an anointed cherub. He was not in Eden. He did not walk up and down before the throne of God. He did not stand in reverent awe and protection over God's laws.

KJV Exodus 25:18-22
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

KJV Hebrews 8:1-5
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

brakelite said:
KJV Hebrews 8:1-5
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

KJV Exodus 25:18-20
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims
be.

KJV Ezekiel 28:14
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

The OT sanctuary was made according to the specific pattern and instructions given to Moses on Sinai. That pattern or blueprint was a miniature copy of the true and original temple in heaven built by God Himself. Every single item in the earthly was deliberate and portrayed real literal counterparts in the heavenly. Those angels weren't there just to look nice. The original had specific roles to play, and there can be no doubt there is significant spiritual meaning regarding their work.

You have quoted Hebrews in two posts. What am I supposed to make of a Seventh Day Adventist quoting Hebrews?

According to the Book of Hebrews, the Old Testament law is DEAD.

According to SDA founder/prophet Ellen White, Jesus will return on a golden throne, holding the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments, embodying Old Testament law. Hebrews says that law has been abolished. If the visions of Ellen White are valid, we would have to tear the Book of Hebrews out of the Bible. You can’t have it both ways.

Dale · Jan 26, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
I wonder here and pause a bit...warned about Bible quotations without explanation? Why be warned about that? What was the warning worded as? I'd like to know?
Scripture should be the clearest left alone. Discussion may ensue.

In general, it is a bit arrogant to quote the Bible while giving no indication of what you think it means. It means that you are assuming that your interpretation is the only one.

That used to be part of the rules and recommendations for smooth debate on CF. I’m not sure if it still is.

brakelite · Jan 27, 2024

Dale said:
Hebrews says that law has been abolished

Scripture please, then we'll discuss it.

Dale · Jan 31, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
See also Isaiah 14 (especially verse 11-20) Lucifer in kjv is Satan in NIV 1984 Satan or the devil is referred to as the morning star..wanted to rise equal or above God...see verse 14.
See Jude 6 and II Peter 2:4 regarding fallen angels...perhaps others have already brought these passages up.
I have just finished my personal reading/study of the book of Ezekiel and Ezekiel 28:13-19 I, also, believe can be considered allegorical and describing Satan's fall. I do not know how it fits with the King of Tyre being addressed here but that he may have been acting under control of Satan. If so this shed additional light upon how we as humans and our kings and leaders can be controlled by the dominion of Satan...Daniel speaks of the many kings and leaders of nations and while perhaps this can be taken in a literal sense I believe it can be speaking about the wars in the heavenly realms also which Apostle Paul writes about in Ephesians 6:12.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Ephesians 6:12 NIV

“… spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms”?

If demons are fallen angels who rebelled against God and were removed from God’s presence and from Heaven, they aren’t in the heavenly realms.

It is possible that “heavenly realms” doesn’t mean what you think it means. Perhaps “the heavenly realms” means the world stage, where kings and other leaders command armies. In the ancient world, people believed that portents in the sky foretold or reflected events on earth.

Paul isn’t talking about something that happened in the distant past here. The verse starts off, “Our struggle …”

Reasonably Sane · Jan 31, 2024

The beginning of Genesis is poetry. It makes the point but my personal opinion is that it should not be taken literally. I also am not convinced the "serpent" was the person, Satan. Just my opinion, of course. They didn't write then like we do today.

throughfiierytrial · Jan 31, 2024

Dale said:
In general, it is a bit arrogant to quote the Bible while giving no indication of what you think it means. It means that you are assuming that your interpretation is the only one.

That used to be part of the rules and recommendations for smooth debate on CF. I’m not sure if it still is.

If Bible is left alone, then God speaks...add your own words and you may mess it up.
Sure, at times you may interpret and discuss, but it certainly doesn't sound arrogant to me if you allow God's word to do the speaking.
His Word produces faith and salvation
It is Miraculous and powerful...sharper than a double-edged sword.
And, God gives us assurance that His Word, alone, speaks and produces His desired outcome where he says "My Word shall not return to me void".

Dale · Feb 3, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
See also Isaiah 14 (especially verse 11-20) Lucifer in kjv is Satan in NIV 1984 Satan or the devil is referred to as the morning star..wanted to rise equal or above God...see verse 14.
See Jude 6 and II Peter 2:4 regarding fallen angels...perhaps others have already brought these passages up.
I have just finished my personal reading/study of the book of Ezekiel and Ezekiel 28:13-19 I, also, believe can be considered allegorical and describing Satan's fall. I do not know how it fits with the King of Tyre being addressed here but that he may have been acting under control of Satan. If so this shed additional light upon how we as humans and our kings and leaders can be controlled by the dominion of Satan...Daniel speaks of the many kings and leaders of nations and while perhaps this can be taken in a literal sense I believe it can be speaking about the wars in the heavenly realms also which Apostle Paul writes about in Ephesians 6:12.

You mention Jude in defending “fallen angels.” There is another interpretation that you are probably not aware of.

First, did you read the whole of Jude? It is really less than a page long. What is the scope and purpose of Jude? There are two main points: Respect for the apostles and civility when discussing religion. He isn’t talking about the origin of evil or the origin of demons. Why does he talk about angels who are no longer angels in verse 6? Angels are messengers of God, so in that sense Christian evangelists are angels because they bring understanding of God’s will. Some of these evangelists started off preaching the truth but at some point they went off the road, they started teaching something besides Christianity. These evangelists who are now contaminated by unclean teaching are no longer angels. We could call them fallen angels, although Jude does not use that term.

Jude doesn’t say that these former angels were cast out of heaven, or thrown out by Michael and his angels. He does not say this, even though he does mention Michael in another connection. Instead, in verse 6 he says that these former angels “abandoned their own home.” These evangelists who got off track were not thrown out of heaven, they “abandoned” the religion they once taught.

All through the New Testament we are warned about false prophets, false teachers, and this is what Jude is talking about. Look through the Book of Jude.

Jude 3 tells us to “contend for the faith.”
Verse 4 begins, “ For certain men whose condemnation was written about …” Later: “They are godless men …”
Verse 10 begins, “Yet these men speak abusively …”
Verse 12 begins, “These men are blemishes at your love feasts …”
Verse 13 begins, “They are wild waves of the sea …”
Verse 16 begins, “These men are grumblers and fault-finders …”
Verse 19 begins, “These are the men who divide you …”

Jude isn’t talking about demons, he is talking about false teachers, false teaching, and teaching coming from hypocrites. He is talking about men, not supernatural beings.

For reference, verse 6, which you referred to.

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
--Jude verse 6 NIV

Again, notice that these former angels were not thrown out of heaven all at once, or after a celestial war. They are self-proclaimed evangelists who “abandoned” Christianity.

Dale · Feb 3, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
See also Isaiah 14 (especially verse 11-20) Lucifer in kjv is Satan in NIV 1984 Satan or the devil is referred to as the morning star..wanted to rise equal or above God...see verse 14.
See Jude 6 and II Peter 2:4 regarding fallen angels...perhaps others have already brought these passages up.
I have just finished my personal reading/study of the book of Ezekiel and Ezekiel 28:13-19 I, also, believe can be considered allegorical and describing Satan's fall. I do not know how it fits with the King of Tyre being addressed here but that he may have been acting under control of Satan. If so this shed additional light upon how we as humans and our kings and leaders can be controlled by the dominion of Satan...Daniel speaks of the many kings and leaders of nations and while perhaps this can be taken in a literal sense I believe it can be speaking about the wars in the heavenly realms also which Apostle Paul writes about in Ephesians 6:12.

In the Epistle of II Peter as well, it is clear that Peter is warning against hypocrites and false prophets. In particular, in Chapter 2, from verse 10 to the end, which is verse 22, he denounces people who claim to be Christians but do not follow sexual morality, among other faults.

In II Peter 2:1, Peter speaks of “false prophets,” “false teachers,” “destructive heresies,” and “denying the sovereign Lord.”

Two verses later, II Peter 2:3 begins, “In their greed these teachers will exploit you …”
Verse 10 tells of those who are “bold and arrogant” and “despise authority.”
Verse 12 begins, “But these men blaspheme …”
Verse 13 begins, “They will be paid back with harm …”
Verse 14 begins, “With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning …”
Verse 15 begins, “They have left the straight way and wandered off …”
Verse 17 begins, “These men are springs without water …”
Verse 19 begins, “They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves …”

As already quoted, verse 15 tells us that the false teachers Peter is talking about were once on “the straight way” before they “left” it and “wandered off.” Verses 20-21 are even more clear on this point.

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
II Peter 2:20-21 NIV

It is clear that Peter is talking about people who were Christians, or certainly appeared to be, but became hypocrites who “turn their backs” on Christ.

Dale · Feb 3, 2024

brakelite said:
Scripture please, then we'll discuss it.

Hebrews on the New Covenant:

Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
--Hebrews 7:22

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as
the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old
one, and it is founded on better promises.
Hebrews 8:6 NIV

By calling this covenant “new”, he has made the first one
obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon
disappear. --Hebrews 8:13 NIV

The Book of Hebrews tells us that there is an Old Covenant and a New Covenant.
The Old Covenant is “obsolete” and destined to “disappear.”
The Old Covenant is replaced, superseded, by the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is “better” and “superior.” The New Covenant is the only one we have after the old one disappears.

throughfiierytrial · Feb 6, 2024

Dale said:
You mention Jude in defending “fallen angels.” There is another interpretation that you are probably not aware of.

First, did you read the whole of Jude? It is really less than a page long. What is the scope and purpose of Jude? There are two main points: Respect for the apostles and civility when discussing religion. He isn’t talking about the origin of evil or the origin of demons. Why does he talk about angels who are no longer angels in verse 6? Angels are messengers of God, so in that sense Christian evangelists are angels because they bring understanding of God’s will. Some of these evangelists started off preaching the truth but at some point they went off the road, they started teaching something besides Christianity. These evangelists who are now contaminated by unclean teaching are no longer angels. We could call them fallen angels, although Jude does not use that term.

Jude doesn’t say that these former angels were cast out of heaven, or thrown out by Michael and his angels. He does not say this, even though he does mention Michael in another connection. Instead, in verse 6 he says that these former angels “abandoned their own home.” These evangelists who got off track were not thrown out of heaven, they “abandoned” the religion they once taught.

All through the New Testament we are warned about false prophets, false teachers, and this is what Jude is talking about. Look through the Book of Jude.

Jude 3 tells us to “contend for the faith.”
Verse 4 begins, “ For certain men whose condemnation was written about …” Later: “They are godless men …”
Verse 10 begins, “Yet these men speak abusively …”
Verse 12 begins, “These men are blemishes at your love feasts …”
Verse 13 begins, “They are wild waves of the sea …”
Verse 16 begins, “These men are grumblers and fault-finders …”
Verse 19 begins, “These are the men who divide you …”

Jude isn’t talking about demons, he is talking about false teachers, false teaching, and teaching coming from hypocrites. He is talking about men, not supernatural beings.

For reference, verse 6, which you referred to.

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
--Jude verse 6 NIV

Again, notice that these former angels were not thrown out of heaven all at once, or after a celestial war. They are self-proclaimed evangelists who “abandoned” Christianity.

No, they are not simply evangelists. Notice some are named men, some are named angels and they are even compared...you are reading into the text what is not there. Do a simple read through.

misput · Feb 16, 2024

Dale said:
Hebrews on the New Covenant:

Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
--Hebrews 7:22

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as
the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old
one, and it is founded on better promises.
Hebrews 8:6 NIV

By calling this covenant “new”, he has made the first one
obsolete; and what is obsolete and ageing will soon
disappear. --Hebrews 8:13 NIV

The Book of Hebrews tells us that there is an Old Covenant and a New Covenant.
The Old Covenant is “obsolete” and destined to “disappear.”
The Old Covenant is replaced, superseded, by the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is “better” and “superior.” The New Covenant is the only one we have after the old one disappears.

The Old Covenant with all it's laws and works has not literally disappeared so maybe this is referring to the New Covenant giving us a "better" Spiritual understanding of God and salvation. What thinkest thou? : )

throughfiierytrial · Feb 16, 2024

misput said:
The Old Covenant with all it's laws and works has not literally disappeared so maybe this is referring to the New Covenant giving us a "better" Spiritual understanding of God and salvation. What thinkest thou? : )

The Old Covenant no longer stands against us in other words.

misput · Feb 16, 2024

throughfiierytrial said:
The Old Covenant no longer stands against us in other words.

Did it ever stand against anyone, unless they tried to be totally justified by it (which is to have faith in ones self) and not by faith in God?

Why did God Punish Snakes Instead of Satan?

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