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Why did God create Lucifer or allow evil? For a non believer who doesn't find God's foresight enough to convince him?

GoldenKingGaze

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I have a theodicy that bases the root of evil amidst a good God who has all knowledge and might dependent on the fallen angels. I also think that God did not make some of the angels knowing they would fall and made Raphael and perhaps others even Michael...

So Lucifer, complete, only one rebellion, that can be finished with finality.

A greater angel or a number of them not made, maybe 2089 others. Could have been a great toll on the holy angels, God and young souls. More in number, strength, wisdom, injury effect. Able to tempt beyond resistance?

Lesser evil, maybe more than one rebellion, no final victory over it, testing without full efficacy.

With a full Satan, in strength and wisdom... we have a full new nature, final and full sanctification, greater glory, rewards and freedom.

What can I say to my friend who can't see enough care and love and wisdom in my short two page theodicy?
 

Joseph G

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I would invite your friend to a front row seat at Christ's crucifixion. Observe this Man as He approaches, that He is so bloodied and scourged and beat that He no longer resembles a man. Watch as nails are driven into His hands and feet and He is raised up. Watch as He writhes in agony, occasionally raising Himself up on the nails just so He can breathe. Watch as He refuses the wine so that His senses aren't dulled. Watch as, in the very midst of His torment, He is mocked, taunted and spit upon - a spectacle before the whole world.

Listen as He responds by asking The Father to forgive them, to forgive all of us - even in the midst of our sin. Witness the final, ultimate act of faith in God's goodness ever demonstrated to mankind - as this Man, with His last words, prays to the very One Who is pouring all Of His wrath upon Him - "Father into thy hands I commit my Spirit."

Finally watch the spear pierce His side, releasing water and blood, signifying that He has just about bled completely out, if not all.

Jesus gave everything He possibly could. So did His Father.

After the darkness passes and the earthquake stops, ask this friend a question - do you agree with the one thief what he sees, that we all plainly see, that this is an innocent Man?

Next, do you agree with the Roman Centurion that this is indeed the Son of God? Do you agree because you have just witnessed what he did, the most supreme act of pure Love ever demonstrated?

If you're friend responds by dropping all demands upon God and receiving Christ's atonement, then you and all the heavenly host can rejoice!

But if your friend responds, "Ah, that's all well and good, but what about my question? Why did God create Lucifer and allow evil?" Or fill in the blank with any inquisition of God's goodness. Imagine your friend not being satisfied with your answer and walking away indifferent to what he just witnessed.

Well, of course, you would keep on praying for him. And you would know what to pray for - his heart - not his head. Because his problem is not an inability to ascend to God intellectually, it is this:

Job 40:8 NKJV

“Would you indeed annul My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

God bless!
 
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eleos1954

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God created His intelligent creatures with choice .... LOVE ... requires free choice ... it can not be forced else it's not true love. God did not make any "robots" ... all have choice.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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God created His intelligent creatures with choice .... LOVE ... requires free choice ... it can not be forced else it's not true love. God did not make any "robots" ... all have choice.
God being almighty, all seeing, infinite future possibilities, could He have gone without creating Lucifer and left free choice up to us without Lucifer and the dark angels?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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When God created the universe, He imparted a degree of sovereignty to each and every thing He made. He created each thing with the "right" to exist and the "right" to interact with all the other things He created. A rock can exist and roll down a hill without asking permission from God. That permission exists by default, by reason of being a created thing. It is called the course of nature. It is the interaction of all created things in time and space. This principle extends to all created things, including angels and even Satan. Satan is called the adversary. He has the right to exist and interact with all other things, including humans. As an adversary, he has the right to be adverse. He does not need permission. He has standing permission to do whatever his power and ability allow him to do. He is described as a lion that goes about devouring who he will. A lion does not need to ask if it can do what lions do, i.e., "get" people. A lion does not ask permission to "get" a gazelle. It has standing permission to get the gazelle - by default. Can God intervene in His creation and prevent or initiate whatever He wants? Of course. But it is evident that He does not. So, the answer is that this is not a creation where God orchestrates everything that happens. Things happen by course of nature. So, God's role is that of an intervener. Every event is allowed to happen by default, and baring intervention by God will occur regardless of whether it results in good or evil. All this is obvious to everyone who observes the world the way it is. Salvation is an intervention against the default value of lostness. Healing is an intervention against the default condition of sickness. Deliverance is an intervention against the default condition of oppression—Etc etc.
So, I think people have this all backward. This is a creation of the possible, not a creation of control.
 
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com7fy8

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"Why did God create Lucifer or allow evil?"

Well, I would say God is not allowing evil, but He is managing it on its way to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

There is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

People of Satan's evil spirit do what they do, but while they are being processed to where the stuff in them will spend eternity . . . carrying that filth of Satan's spirit to that flaming sewer.

So, make sure you are not allowing evil stuff in you, stuff which will go to Hell >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malioe." (Ephesians 4:31)

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

And make sure your forgiving is up-to-date. (Mark 11:25)
 
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KevinT

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If one sees God as directing every action in the universe, then it is hard to not blame God when bad things, like Satan, occur.

I believe, instead, that God created the universe and the creatures in it with free will. I have no idea how He did this, but it seems to me as a fundamental truth. So Lucifer, having free will, chose to go against God and our earth has had no end of pain and suffering ever since.

tl;dr -- God shouldn't be blamed when one of His created beings decides to do wrong.

KT
 
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eleos1954

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God being almighty, all seeing, infinite future possibilities, could He have gone without creating Lucifer and left free choice up to us without Lucifer and the dark angels?
The choice of what? Everything God originally created was good, created out of love to love. God is Love ... Love MUST be a choice ... it can not be forced or else it's not Love. God don't tempt anyone ... nor does He force anyone's decisions (including the angels) ... without the choice to love or not love God means we would be a bunch of robots in that regard.

Love is meaningful precisely because it cannot be forced. It is meaningful precisely because it is a choice.

Freedom of choice is of infinite importance to God because He wanted a love relationship with the angels and people He created. He wants a relationship with people who can reason with Him. (Isa. 1:18)

From eternity past, the Father and the Son and the Spirit have been in community, in relationship. They have loved each other. That loving relationship is bound up in the very nature of God himself (God is Love). If God were not a Trinity but merely a solitary divinity, he could neither be love nor be God. It takes more than one for love to exist.

God's law ... His laws when kept perfectly produces Love (only Christ - who is God could do this). The law defines who God is. God is love.
God, as the Creator, has complete authority over His creation, including humanity. He expects us to behave in a certain way and distinguishes between right and wrong, righteousness and sin. The law represents His expressed will, demonstrating His holiness, justice, and goodness. It is not intended to spoil our lives but rather to bless and guide us.
 
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public hermit

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If God didn't know the angels would fall, then God is not all-knowing. But I might have misunderstood. Are you saying God's knowledge and might depend on the angels? If so, then you will need to justify that claim (make it make sense).
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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If God didn't know the angels would fall, then God is not all-knowing. But I might have misunderstood. Are you saying God's knowledge and might depend on the angels? If so, then you will need to justify that claim (make it make sense).
God knew which ones would fall, and much more. The question is about convincing love, in how God designed and prepared for the fall and we ourselves. Our family peace and love.
 
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public hermit

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God knew which ones would fall, and much more. The question is about convincing love, in how God designed and prepared for the fall and we ourselves. Our family peace and love.

So your theodicy is that God allowed for evil for reasons. Does evil persist forever in your theodicy?
 
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eleos1954

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God being almighty, all seeing, infinite future possibilities, could He have gone without creating Lucifer and left free choice up to us without Lucifer and the dark angels?
God don't tempt anyone .... the temptation must come from outside of God ... the choice is to love or not to love.

Giving into temptation is sin (it is impossible for God to sin). For example, lust is sin even if it's never acted on.

Sin is transgression of the law .... His law defines who He is .... God is love .... He can't be anything other than who He is. His laws when kept perfectly produce love ... in essence they are love laws. Love can not be forced.

Love is tested ...

Temptation is a lure to sin. God doesn't do that, but He does test.
Love is tested ....

  • Psalms 11:5: "The LORD tests the righteous"
  • Job 23:10: "When he has tried me, I shall come out as gold"
  • Jeremiah 17:10: "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind"
  • Proverbs 17:3: "The LORD tests hearts"
  • James 1:2–4: "The testing of your faith produces steadfastness"
  • James 1:12: "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life"
John wants us to know that love isn’t just something God does. Rather, love originates from Him. It is the foundation of His character. You cannot segment, subtract, or alter it. Everything God is—including His justice and mercy—is rooted in this unalterable fact: God is love.

God created Lucifer, the angels and mankind in spite of knowing that they/we would sin because He values a relationship with His created beings so much that He was willing to take on the risk of eternal loss so that He could have a forever relationship based on pure love with the beings He had created by their choice ... not His choice. Really quite amazing !!!

The impact of love is intangible ... relationships are intangible ... True Love is spiritual.

God created His intelligent beings to have a relationship with Him and that relationship to be based on love because God IS love.

Love requires a intelligent relationship. Love is supernatural (intangible) and emanates from God himself (God is the source of Love).
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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So your theodicy is that God allowed for evil for reasons. Does evil persist forever in your theodicy?
Evil persists according to scripture which describes the New Jerusalem, and outside are the dogs...
 
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public hermit

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Evil persists according to scripture which describes the New Jerusalem, and outside are the dogs...

Are the gates of the New Jerusalem open or closed?

Thanks for answering my questions. I prefer a theodicy where God is not only justified in allowing evil but where evil is also defeated.
 
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David Lamb

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Are the gates of the New Jerusalem open or closed?

Thanks for answering my questions. I prefer a theodicy where God is not only justified in allowing evil but where evil is also defeated.
At present, the gates are open to all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Once they die, or when the last day comes, there will no longer be any opportunity to believe on the Saviour - the gates will be closed.

Although evil continues to exist, it, and the devil, will be defeated:

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,” (Heb 2:14 NKJV),” (Heb 2:14 NKJV)
 
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KevinT

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HOW do you think the devil will be defeated? Will it be with forceful destruction, a zap and poof and the devil is gone? Or will the devil be defeated the way rumors and accusations have to be battled, namely with truth and evidence?

Best wishes,
KT
 
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oikonomia

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He will be defeated by Christ's life and nature saturating His saints who are built up in oneness.
For this reason Satan attacks always the oneness of Christ's church.

His final execution will be because the oneness of God's people us built up and permeated with the life and nature of
God in Christ. Then the initial defeat of Satan at Calvary is transmitted down from the Head of the church into His Body.

Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)
 
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Joseph G

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Well said!

1) Satan is already defeated. Jesus won by sacrificing His own good and perfect will - unto death - in obedience to the Father's will. Jesus did what we cannot do, in His time here and in His death - fully conquer Self. Our own will is where the devil tempts us. Jesus DENIED the devil his dearest desire - to corrupt the One He is insanely jealous of - the rightful Heir to God's throne.

2) Having been denied what the devil lusts for above all - to replace God on His throne - he since has unleashed his great wrath upon God's Children so as to hurt the heart of God by the only means left to him.

3) However, much to his chagrin, Satan is likewise defeated with every soul added to God's Kingdom who receives Jesus as their Savior and Lord. And in the process of sanctification thereafter, where we learn to ever-increasing degree to die to Self so that Jesus can live and love through us - the devil loses access to strongholds of vulnerability we carry around with us - the realm of our own will.

Despite his boasting, Satan is in a constant state of defeat!

4) He's gonna get his - thus evil IS ultimately defeated. God's grace triumphs over all. And His and our longing for ultimate justice will be satisfied - right before our eyes...

First, before occupying his ultimate destination, Satan will have to endure this humiliation before all creation - being paraded in full light for who he really is:

Isaiah 14: 1-17 NIV

"The Lord will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Foreigners will join them
and unite with the descendants of Jacob.
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And Israel will take possession of the nations
and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”

As for the purchased Sons and Daughters of God, we will see the devil, and his own, meet their ultimate fate:

Psalm 91:7-8 NIV

"A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked."

And... it's Adios Diablo! He will be silenced -forever and ever.

Revelation 20:7-10 NI

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

God bless us all who will be forever free to praise Jesus' Name without the devil's interruptions or distractions ever again!

biblegateway.com
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The New Jerusalem comes after all that, right?
 
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