Why did God create evil?

HumbleUnderdog · Apr 15, 2006

Ramble ramble yes, I'm not even sure what to reply to that lol. The post doesn't even seem to make any connection with the question I ask. Oh well, good try. But your post seems mostly truthfal anyway. Maybe that could be another discussion sometime.

secretoceanmystery · Apr 15, 2006

If there was no evil, then there would be no good. No one would know the difference, and the world would be a very boring place to be. First we must sin to learn, and learn to become good, if we do not learn from our mistakes, how can we ever reach the kingdom of heaven? If there was no evil, there would be no love, it is evil and bad things in life, that make us ever more determined to survive, and be better people. It is the bad things in life that make us love the good things.

Hope that makes sense.

OttawaUk · Apr 15, 2006

Ask yourself this question, what is more loving?

A parent who locks their child in the closet, protecting it from the outside world but forcing it to do nothing but stay in the closet. The parent provides everything for the child but they will never know or appreciate what the parent has done.

or

A parent who provides everything the child needs, but also allows the child to make their own decisions. If the child messes up and leaves home, the love of the parent is so great that even though the child is gone because of disobedience, they'll make enormous sacrafices to help bring the child home. But the child is never forced to live at home or come back, but they have their own choice.

I see our freedom of choice as the ultimate expression of God's love. He loves us so much that He allows us to have the choice to disobey Him, but at the same time, He came down and spent six hours dying on a cross to bring us home, even after we disobeyed Him.

Pretty loving if you ask me.

OU

HumbleUnderdog · Apr 15, 2006

Last two posters: that helps alot, and further helps with the logic of free will and how it ties in with a loving creator allowing evil. Good points.

A parent who locks their child in the closet, protecting it from the outside world but forcing it to do nothing but stay in the closet. The parent provides everything for the child but they will never know or appreciate what the parent has done." That is almost exactly how I was raised, and it was horrible. It was horrible because I knew that there was an outside world and many things out there to enjoy and many people to help out and many things to learn etc. However if there is nothing created 'outside the closet' then you wouldn't be missing out on anything. If there was no evil allowed, then we wouldn't be able to explore evil and we would have freedom in purity and only that freedom, which sounds alot better than also having the freedom to be on the unpure side of things. We would have no choice but to be 100 percent clean, we would have no choice but to be happy and free of illnesses etc. and all those other things that christians will see in Heaven. So why did God just create us all in Heaven instead?
So far because he gave us free will. Why did he give us free will to do evil and then what seemingly seems to be "backstabbing" on His part and have so much wrath and anger to send us to Hell for our bad choice of being on the Satan side of things even though it's nearly impossible for many people to be assure of and believe there is a God because the way things are these days?

I'm trying to understand and explore this topic as much as I possibly can, so throw anymore ideas and theories at me.

"

OttawaUk · Apr 15, 2006

Remember, God did create us in "Heaven". The world He created was good, there was no evil. But God gave us the choice and we disobeyed Him which brough sin and evil into the world. You said it yourself, in regards to the child being locked in the closet. "That is almost exactly how I was raised, and it was horrible." So that's why God gave us the choice, but even though we failed Him and disobeyed, He gave us the way home through Jesus Christ.

As for Hell - disobiedence requires punishment. If God did not punish sinners to the full extent, He wouldn't be Just. Where there is disobiedence there has to be justice, otherwise the whole system fails.

OU

Chris Norwood · Apr 16, 2006

Nimbo said:
So far, the free will idea is the most logical. And what Norwood said might be true: that if we are to experience love, then there would need to be something that would enable us to not feel love, as a means of differentiating the two ends of the spectrum. Which would make me wonder what heaven is like, since there's no evil or bad or darkness. Does that mean you can't experience love in Heaven?

Okay, first of all, the only way to get into heaven is to have already made the choice to love God. In God's infininte kindness, He there removes our propensity to screw up what we know is the best thing for us. For even the best of us here on the Earth still have trouble living out our relationship with God without messing it up. Take this admission by Paul:

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. -Romans 7:15

In heaven, we will have already entered by choice into a love relationship with God, and there we will be able to experience it without the interference of our sinful natures.

Nimbo said:
Any other theories or thoughts on why a loving almighty being would allow his creation to go wrong? People often say that if God is all love and He created us, they see it as an "experiment gone totally wrong," and for that reason they don't feel as if God is Almighty and in control of his creation. Therefore, they deny God. And understanding their point of view, they have great reason to feel that way.

But the "experinment gone totally wrong" denies the omniscience of God. God knows everything, so He therefore knew the trouble we would cause and created us anyway. It only proves how much He loves us, and the death of Jesus on the cross proves the extent to which He would go to offer us the chance to make things right.

And Rafael, I'm not sure that Isaiah 45:7 really addresses this topic as much as it seems to. You quoted from the KJV, right? Well, the other translations I have around use these words instead of "peace" and "evil": prosperity/disaster (NIV), good times/bad times (NLT),and well-being/calamity (NASB). I think that the verse itself is more making the point that that God is the God of everything, both light and dark, good times and tragety, all day and all night. I agree with your post, however, and I think that an important point to make about God and evil is that it was not his intent that evil should arise. He clearly wanted angels and men to choose to love and fellowship with Him. So while He made it possible for evil to exist, it was not the choice He wanted people to make.

HumbleUnderdog · Apr 17, 2006

Thanks again for the replies. Let's see here....

OttawaUK: God created us humans (or in a literal sense, Adam and Eve first) in "heaven." By "heaven" do you mean Earth-which back then was 100000% pure and perfect until the "fruit incident?" So Earth at first was "heaven?" I think the bible says that God casted Satan out of the "heavens" and down to the Earth. I can't remember where it says that, and correct me if I'm wrong on that. That will clear up some confusion here.

"But God gave us the choice...". This must mean that: he created or allowed sin( sin meaning:that which is without God, so He 'created' the possiblity for existence to "exist" without Him-that should make sense) for the purpose of creating the human animal and "gave" us the ability to: choose; make decisions; reason; to choose to be in God's presence or not. The theory there makes sense. Now my question is: Why not just not create sin and not create a 'domain that is not in God's pure presence' so that sin could not come into existence so that we don't have freedom to be 'with' God or not? If there was no sin, there would be nothing 'bad' whatsoever, there wouldn't even be any knowledge of some 'domain that is without God' so there would be no suffering? We then would have no choice but to be happy and without suffering. I myself, I would much much rather be in an existence where there is only a pure domain without the choice to refrain from that domain, than to be in an existence where there is the ability to refrain from that domain. I think I would much rather been created "totally clean" without any ability to become "unclean" that to be created totally clean with an ability to become unclean, or be created unclean with an ability to become totally clean.

I hope that makes sense. Any thoughts or critiscisms on that argument are totally welcome. I honestly believe that there is an answer to the question: Why did God create/allow sin? I believe that if we have the ability to ask that question, that we have the ability to find the answer to that question. I'm looking for an answer that I can give to other people who ask that question; an answer that they understand. That's why I posted this question in here. Any help is greatly appreciated.

"In God's infininte kindness, He there removes our propensity to screw up....". Would that statement imply that once in Heaven God removes from us any ability and freedom to go against God? If so, then there is no "free will" anymore. So then why not do that in the first place and not allow any sin or evil to exist? If we are going to be stripped of our free will anyway, why not just create us without that free will?

Sorry to be a bugger but this really is an important question.

"But the "experinment gone totally wrong" denies the omniscience of God. God knows everything, so He therefore knew the trouble we would cause and created us anyway. It only proves how much He loves us, and the death of Jesus on the cross proves the extent to which He would go to offer us the chance to make things right."

I'm not sure that explains and resolves why people see God's creation as an "experiment gone wrong." Maybe I just don't see it. And if I don't see it, then I can't show other people how to see it. Please help there. Thanks.

euphoria · Apr 18, 2006

God did not create evil. The Bible doesn't even say this. God created all things, but he stated it was all good. There was no evil in the beginning. Evil is a device of those opposed to God's will.

Utah Knight · Apr 21, 2006

i do not feel god created evil humans did because we were given free will

The Virginian · Apr 23, 2006

Nimbo said:
What was His purpose in doing so? I am looking for answers from facts, evidence, and logic and reason. I have heard this question many times: Why did God create Satan and evil, and why did He allow Lucipher (Satan) to betray Him in heaven? And why did He cast Satan down to Earth where He also created Adam afterward? Because He did create Adam in a place where Satan was roaming, did He not expect humans to sin? And if He knew humans were going to sin, then why did God react to the eating of the fruit from the tree with such anger and wrath?

Evil: As long as Adam and Eve followed , were obedient to what God said, they were fine. We see the rise of tragedy and death once they chose to go outside the will of God. The same thing happened with Lucifer, the once archangel of light; when he decided to rebelagainst God Almighty, insted of the goodness of God being known, evil the offspring of death was born.

Anger and wrath: Understand something, Christianity came out of a culture in which the people were well aware of something called "covenant". I n fact the canon fo Scripture we havv today is termed "the Old Covenant/Testament, and the New Covneant/Testament. In covneant practice it is usually the greater of two parties who initiates the terms of covenant with a lesser. Everything owned by either party can become the property of the other if a claim to it is made. If the terms of covenant are broken, the one
covenant partner has the right to slay the other. "...for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die...."

Why create Adam in the place where Satan roamed? To get a handle on this answer, read the first couple of chapters of the book of Job! True enough Satan roamed about to and fro on the earth: however; as long as Adam walked in humility and obedience with God, he was fine, for God protects those who belong tro Him. After all, it's the honor of God's name that's at stake here.

Calminian · Apr 25, 2006

Nimbo said:
Any other theories or thoughts on why a loving almighty being would allow his creation to go wrong? People often say that if God is all love and He created us, they see it as an "experiment gone totally wrong," and for that reason they don't feel as if God is Almighty and in control of his creation. Therefore, they deny God. And understanding their point of view, they have great reason to feel that way.

God allowed creatures the potential to "go wrong" because He view freedom as a higher good. The only logical way for God to avoid evil and suffering would be to eliminate freedom—i.e. create robots. Or to not create creatures at all. Obviously He saw freedom as more important and good thing than eliminating evil. I do too BTW and I'll bet you agree.

This is illustrated best when we see people bringing children into the world. Nimbo have you brought any children into the world? Or do you intend to? If so you've committed the very wrong you're trying to attribute to God. For you know that children have freewill and have a potential to do good or evil (at least eventually). You also know they may suffer from evil at the hands of someone else. The only way to avoid this is not to give them existence.

In essence, to argue that God is evil for giving creatures the freedom to do evil, would be the same as arguing that all parents are evil. Is that something you're prepared to do? And the only person that could consistently do this is one who is willing to remain childless. Is that something you're prepared to do?

Hope that makes sense.

Nadiine · Apr 25, 2006

euphoria said:
God did not create evil. The Bible doesn't even say this. God created all things, but he stated it was all good. There was no evil in the beginning. Evil is a device of those opposed to God's will.

Right, the Bible DOESN'T say this, but the verse in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things." uses this word in some translations -
so people think it has only ONE [English] meaning; literal evil. Other translations use "calamity" or "disaster".

Your post here makes an excellent point, IF God did create 'evil' itself, THEN HE CALLED EVIL "GOOD" AT THE CREATION. Big problem!! If God called evil "good", then He can hardly judge it as "bad".

If you carefully read Is. 45:7, in its full context, you'll see the theme of using opposites. "I create light and darkness". dark being opposite of light.
What is the opposite of PEACE? evil? no.
The opposite of Evil is righteousness/goodness, not peace!
The opposite of peace is UNREST/calamity/disaster.
Calamity & disaster are the better translation.
God DOES send calamity in His judgments all throughout the OT.

Also, Evil is NOT EVEN CREATED. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OF GOODNESS.
You can liken it to having a wound/cut on an arm. The CUT itself is intangible; nothing CREATED in & of itself.
Without the arm (it's host), the wound/cut can't exist.
Only when you have the arm, can the cut/wound exist.

Also, to say God created evil, IS TO PROCLAIM THAT GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. Making God evil - the Bible says God cannot lie, so how is GOD the AUTHOR OF THE LIE??

All the way around, God creating evil is UNBIBLICAL both directly by scripture itself, and by logical reasoning.

Calminian · Apr 25, 2006

Nadiine said:
Right, the Bible DOESN'T say this, but the verse in Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things." uses this word in some translations -
so people think it has only ONE [English] meaning; literal evil. Other translations use "calamity" or "disaster".

Your post here makes an excellent point, IF God did create 'evil' itself, THEN HE CALLED EVIL "GOOD" AT THE CREATION. Big problem!! If God called evil "good", then He can hardly judge it as "bad".

If you carefully read Is. 45:7, in its full context, you'll see the theme of using opposites. "I create light and darkness". dark being opposite of light.
What is the opposite of PEACE? evil? no.
The opposite of Evil is righteousness/goodness, not peace!
The opposite of peace is UNREST/calamity/disaster.
Calamity & disaster are the better translation.
God DOES send calamity in His judgments all throughout the OT.

Also, Evil is NOT EVEN CREATED. EVIL IS THE ABSENCE OF GOODNESS.
You can liken it to having a wound/cut on an arm. The CUT itself is intangible; nothing CREATED in & of itself.
Without the arm (it's host), the wound/cut can't exist.
Only when you have the arm, can the cut/wound exist.

Also, to say God created evil, IS TO PROCLAIM THAT GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. Making God evil - the Bible says God cannot lie, so how is GOD the AUTHOR OF THE LIE??

All the way around, God creating evil is UNBIBLICAL both directly by scripture itself, and by logical reasoning.

An excellent point, by the way, Nadiine. There's a distinction between natural evils and decisional evils. (There's probably better terms to describe them as well.)

Followers4christ · Apr 27, 2006

Nimbo said:
What was His purpose in doing so? I am looking for answers from facts, evidence, and logic and reason. I have heard this question many times: Why did God create Satan and evil, and why did He allow Lucipher (Satan) to betray Him in heaven? And why did He cast Satan down to Earth where He also created Adam afterward? Because He did create Adam in a place where Satan was roaming, did He not expect humans to sin? And if He knew humans were going to sin, then why did God react to the eating of the fruit from the tree with such anger and wrath?

I don't think the question is why did God create evil I think the question is why did God create free will? It is because God didn't want robots to follow him but people who could think for themselves and who could love,obey,praise,and glorify him also people who could choose to live a sinless life instead of being forced to do so.I for one love that God created free will for me as well as for everyone else it makes us all have unique personalities and we our are own person but I do not like what Adam and Eve did with their free will they brought death,pain,sickness,and sin into this world.God is not to blame for bringing sin into the world it was mankind that is to blame for bringing sin into this world because it was our free will that brought it into this world.God Bless.

thirst2 · Apr 27, 2006

Followers4christ said:
I don't think the question is why did God create evil I think the question is why did God create free will? It is because God didn't want robots to follow him but people who could think for themselves and who could love,obey,praise,and glorify him also people who could choose to live a sinless life instead of being forced to do so.I for one love that God created free will for me as well as for everyone else it makes us all have unique personalities and we our are own person but I do not like what Adam and Eve did with their free will they brought death,pain,sickness,and sin into this world.God is not to blame for bringing sin into the world it was mankind that is to blame for bringing sin into this world because it was our free will that brought it into this world.God Bless.

Yes, yes, yes! I couldn't have put it better myself. Exactly.

SpitfireOverThames · Apr 29, 2006

My quick thoughts on this question:

God designates limited power to His creation. He gives them the same ability to choose good/love as they might choose evil/hatred. One cannot exist without the other. (It is my belief that even in the future when Creation is restored and the dark ones put down, that there will remain freewill to choose to rebel against the One.)

Why did God allow Satan to do as he chose? What happened in eternity was not a surprise to the Lord. If He had simply waved His hand and destroyed the evil angels, the rest of creation (of which we only know a small part as revealed in Scripture) would've served the Creator out of fear, not love.

Instead, however, the Creator chose to allow evil to play out its course (and He is allowing the same in human history as well). The fact is that God would defeat the evil not with force, but with and through love (on His terms).

In coming to earth as a man, the Lord eventually became the bullseye for evil forces...yet in the evil attacking Him, the result was the defeat of evil through love. Not only was the evil defeated in His death (and subsequent Resurrection), but He also honoured His own standards of holiness... He demonstrated the greatest tangible act of love which cannot be separated from the beauty of His holiness. And our actions of hatred cannot be separated from the ugliness of depravity (and subsequent judgement).

~Sean

OttawaUk · Apr 29, 2006

I totally agree with you, Sean.

Godslilgurlalways · Apr 29, 2006

Nimbo said:
What was His purpose in doing so?
I feel that it wasn't God he created him to be evil it was just that jealousness and pride got in the way, pride is a dangerous thing.

I am looking for answers from facts, evidence, and logic and reason. I have heard this question many times: Why did God create Satan and evil, and why did He allow Lucipher (Satan) to betray Him in heaven?
God knew when he created him this was going to happen, plus remember God gave us the opinion to have free will but remembering it comes with a price

And why did He cast Satan down to Earth where He also created Adam afterward?
Becuase Satan was no longer worthy of being where he was after that you know he was one of the best angels but pride gets even the best of people. You ask why did he cast them down but really why would you want to be in Heaven with someone who tries to take over heaven, someone who is no longert humble nor grateful of the postition, also like saying why can't people who hate God go to Heaven, than there would be no point of having heaven it wouldn't really make since.

Because He did create Adam in a place where Satan was roaming, did He not expect humans to sin?
He knew what was going to happen but he did give them free will, But remember Adam and Eve could have called on the Lord for help or they could have prayed to him remember, they were without sin before he created them God gave them specific instructions and they disobveid him.

And if He knew humans were going to sin, then why did God react to the eating of the fruit from the tree with such anger and wrath?

Because they had sined, b/c aftewr that they disobied him

onlygodwilljudgeme · May 3, 2006

I think God created evil to test us. In that i mean if there was no evil, then heaven would be crawling with people who really didnt deserve to be up there with him. He wanted to be 100% sure that everyone that joins him at his side is worthy of being there. How would you show that here on earth when there was no tests put forth? Good vs. Evil we have evil put in our face everyday, and it is up to us to destroy it.

HumbleUnderdog · May 12, 2006

Well, I think this concludes this discussion. The only reason I have been given here is that evil exists in order for us humans to have a free will.

My next questions would be things concerning a free will but that is for another discussion or two or three. Until then, thanks to all who answered.

Why did God create evil?

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