Why continue making excuses for god?

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

Rather than to continue to respond ad infinitum to your posts, I'll just say the following:

Itjust comes down to that your god can do no wrong. You'll always find a way to justify his behavior and the awful things that exist in this world. You can't explain how a loving god would kill an innocent child, but very time you come up with a way to make god look good (or the devil look bad) and it's all justified.

I could never see myself living this way where whenever I'm faced with an issue about "why did god kill my mom or that little sweet girl with cancer" that I have to justify it somehow.

God takes credit for all that is good and the devil (or evil human beings) take the credit for all taht is bad. Interesting. Next time I buy something that is defective, I'll just blame it on the devil for influencing me to buy it, or better yet, blame myself for being too corrupted with sin to buy the right product.

I could justify all night long that I am in fact god, and that it's I that am responsible for all the good in this world, and that it is my sister who controls all the evil. I could just say I'm too lazy to cure the sick and feed the hungry, but I could if I wanted to. Could you prove otherwise, no. And I realize that I can't prove that your god doesn't exist either. So why would you believe one over the other?

Seriously, if you're feeling froggy, give it a try and prove that I'm not god.

Anything is possible when you believe in magic.

dvd_holc · Jul 24, 2007

How old are you?

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

dvd_holc said:
How old are you?

319 years of age, why do you ask?

I'm assuming, though, that you're addressing my infantile post. I'll admit it isn't the best argument, but for the sake of my point, I believe it serves a purpose.

If you believe that god can explain all things, then I challenged you to prove that I, Zocrates, cannot do all things as well as, or even better than god himself.

heron · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates, you will find that anyone with faith -- any religion, will stand behind it with conviction. You would probably not attack a Hindu for their faith, or a Tibetan monk. Faith is very personal.

If you try to challenge any devout person's faith, you can expect them to come up with a rationale. They have spent years thinking about the same questions you have presented.

If you want to learn about a religion, then take a private, individual search for enlightenment. People don't find Truth by tripping others up on their walks, or even by throwing out mistruths.

Respect what spirituality is.

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

heron said:
Zocrates, you will find that anyone with faith -- any religion, will stand behind it with conviction. You would probably not attack a Hindu for their faith, or a Tibetan monk. Faith is very personal.

If you try to challenge any devout person's faith, you can expect them to come up with a rationale. They have spent years thinking about the same questions you have presented.

If you want to learn about a religion, then take a private, individual search for enlightenment. People don't find Truth by tripping others up on their walks, or even by throwing out mistruths.

Respect what spirituality is.

OK, now we're actually getting somewhere. Thank you for your post Heron.

I completely understand that faith is personal. In fact, that is my entire point of coming here on this board...to suggest that we all keep our individual beliefs personal instead of inflicting everyone else with them, especially when no one's belief can possibly be proven to be more true than another.

If I held a belief that I am god, that should be a personal belief. I shouldn't go around acting as if I am correct just because no one can prove that I, Zocrates, am not god. Normally, people require more evidence than just someone going around making hallow claims.

But yes, Heron, I'm 100% with you that we cannot go around attacking one another for each other's beliefs as long as you hold them privately. As I said in another post, my best friend is a devout christian and we get along great because we don't subject one another to each other's beliefs. I think the world would be much better off if we could all learn to do this.

No one is saying abolish religion. What I am saying is that it should be more personal, so we can all coexist.

ebia · Jul 24, 2007

Why continue making excuses for God

it would be more accurate to ask "why continue trying to dispel misconceptions about God".

What I am saying is that it should be more personal, so we can all coexist.

The idea that religion could be, let alone should be, personal and not effect politics and society is peculiarity of modern western culture. It's certainly not compatible with any of the great Abrahamic faiths. Christianity (and Judaism, Islam) are supposed to challenge the structures and assumptions of the world. If they don't they are nothing. The Gospel is "Jesus Christ is risen, and is Lord of all creation (to the exclusion of any other Lord)". Not "Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior". The latter is true, but drastically incomplete.

tulc · Jul 24, 2007

Seriously, if you're feeling froggy, give it a try and prove that I'm not god.

Ok: what does tulc mean?
tulc(seems easy if you know all)

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

tulc said:
Ok: what does tulc mean?
tulc(seems easy if you know all)

I will give you my answer in my own time (similar to your own god)

Also, you do not have enough faith in me for me to answer your question appropriately. You need to pray more and in time, if you have enough faith in Zocrates, all your prayers will be answered!

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

ebia said:
it would be more accurate to ask "why continue trying to dispel misconceptions about God".

I don't believe there is any misconception about god that a young christian boy was stricken with cancer and died a slow horrible death. You're going to tell me that god wants young innocent children to die slow horrible deaths? That that's his plan? That there is some ultimately good reason why god kills babies slowly everyday?

No, there is no good reason. It's called life. Kittens die horribly everyday. Ants and butterflies die horribly everyday. Trees die horribly everyday. Living things of all forms die horribly everyday, and humans are no different.

This is no misconception. You try and make excuses for what god is supposedly doing, even if it makes no sense. Sometimes, the most obvious answer may be the correct one (that god has nothing to do with it). Instead, you try and make it all complicated by saying that "maybe god wanted so and so and so on".

ebia · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates said:
I don't believe there is any misconception about god that a young christian boy was stricken with cancer and died a slow horrible death. You're going to tell me that god wants young innocent children to die slow horrible deaths? That that's his plan? That there is some ultimately good reason why god kills babies slowly everyday?

Not at all. Your misconception is in thinking that God isn't doing something about the problem. He's been working on the solution since Abraham (at least), has dealt with it once and for all at Calvary, and began implementing the new creation on Easter morning.

This is no misconception. You try and make excuses for what god is supposedly doing, even if it makes no sense. Sometimes, the most obvious answer may be the correct one (that god has nothing to do with it). Instead, you try and make it all complicated by saying that "maybe god wanted so and so and so on".

I haven't said anything of that sort.

Do you really have question? This part of CF is for genuine questions. If you want to debate the truth, or lack thereof, of Christianity then you should be in "General Apologetics".

Zocrates · Jul 24, 2007

ebia said:
Not at all. Your misconception is in thinking that God isn't doing something about the problem. He's been working on the solution since Abraham (at least), has dealt with it once and for all at Calvary, and began implementing the new creation on Easter morning.

I thought god was all-powerful? Wouldn't that mean if god wanted to do something, he could do it? This whole "working on his own time" thing doesn't make sense if he's all powerful and has the means to stop young children from being pelted with stray bullets, run over by trains, or killed slowly by disease.

You're basically making an excuse for god why these things happen and I'm saying it's wrong to continually make excuses for god when god has nothing to do with why these things happen.

It's equivalent to an abused wife making excuses for her abusive husband when everyone outside of the relationship knows she needs to get out of the reltionship. Meanwhile, the husband keeps promising all these great things all the while slowly beating her to death. I see christians as the abused wives making excuses for their god. My question is why continue to make excuses?

Do you really have question? This part of CF is for genuine questions. If you want to debate the truth, or lack thereof, of Christianity then you should be in "General Apologetics".

Yes, I do have a question. "Why do you continue to make excuses for god?" is my question. When you answer my question, am I not then permitted to respond to it?

tulc · Jul 24, 2007

I will give you my answer in my own time (similar to your own god)

Uhmmmm no that's not what it means. Actually, not even close.

Also, you do not have enough faith in me for me to answer your question appropriately. You need to pray more and in time, if you have enough faith in Zocrates, all your prayers will be answered!

Really? I never stopped praying (prove I didn't) But thanks for playing! (really it's been fun)
tulc(care for some coffee?)

OldWiseGuy · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates said:
I thought god was all-powerful? Wouldn't that mean if god wanted to do something, he could do it? This whole "working on his own time" thing doesn't make sense if he's all powerful and has the means to stop young children from being pelted with stray bullets, run over by trains, or killed slowly by disease.

You're basically making an excuse for god why these things happen and I'm saying it's wrong to continually make excuses for god when god has nothing to do with why these things happen.

It's equivalent to an abused wife making excuses for her abusive husband when everyone outside of the relationship knows she needs to get out of the reltionship. Meanwhile, the husband keeps promising all these great things all the while slowly beating her to death. I see christians as the abused wives making excuses for their god. My question is why continue to make excuses?

If we stopped 'making excuses for God' how would that help those children? I proclaim the power and glory of God as I write checks to Salvation Army, Care, American Red Cross, and Feed the Children. Should I stop sending this money at the same time that I stop glorifying (making excuses for) God? These two acts are inextricably joined.

If every Christian kept their religion (making excuses for God) to themselves, as you suggest, the world would be a much more miserable place than it is. (Imo, of course.)

thinkfreelivefree · Jul 24, 2007

oldwiseguy said:
If we stopped 'making excuses for God' how would that help those children? I proclaim the power and glory of God as I write checks to Salvation Army, Care, American Red Cross, and Feed the Children. Should I stop sending this money at the same time that I stop glorifying (making excuses for) God? These two acts are inextricably joined.

You should send money because of your compassion to help humanity and starving children, not because you are trying to glorify or make yourself look better in the eyes of the Lord.

edit---Has anybody looked into Humanism at all?

WarEagle · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates said:
Itjust comes down to that your god can do no wrong. You'll always find a way to justify his behavior and the awful things that exist in this world.

You must first show that God is responsible for the awful things that exist in the world.

You can't explain how a loving god would kill an innocent child, but very time you come up with a way to make god look good (or the devil look bad) and it's all justified.

When did God ever kill "an innocent child"?

I could never see myself living this way where whenever I'm faced with an issue about "why did god kill my mom or that little sweet girl with cancer" that I have to justify it somehow.

It's funny that, any other time, you'd be telling us that our religion is superstitious, creating a God to explain the world around us and now, that's exactly what you're doing.

There's nothing at all in scripture to indicate that God "kills with cancer".

Cancer is caused by the body's inability to regulate the production of white blood cells, not God.

God takes credit for all that is good and the devil (or evil human beings) take the credit for all taht is bad. Interesting.

Not really. If you read the Bible, you'll see that the Devil is a relatively minor player who doesn't really get "credit" for much of anything.

I could justify all night long that I am in fact god

OK. Let's see you do that.

Could you prove otherwise, no.

Sure. I can look at your birth certificate and see that you were born and, before too long, you're going to die.

So why would you believe one over the other?

Because there is evidence that Jesus is God. There is no evidence that you're God, only evidence that you're not God.

Seriously, if you're feeling froggy, give it a try and prove that I'm not god.

No. You're the one who made the claim that you can justify that you are god. Therefore, it is up to you to justify that you are god, not up to us to show that you're not.

thinkfreelivefree · Jul 24, 2007

Just to add a little

WarEagle said:
You must first show that God is responsible for the awful things that exist in the world.

God created the ability to sin through "free will"

When did God ever kill "an innocent child"?

How soon we forget about God killing all the first born Egyptians, or though no doubt it's a myth, flooding the world. Or the slaughter of the innocents, he could have stopped that.

There's nothing at all in scripture to indicate that God "kills with cancer".

God and Jesus have the "ability" to cure the sick and heal the blind. By not doing so now, isn't that pretty much the same thing?

Cancer is caused by the body's inability to regulate the production of white blood cells, not God.

Good ole Science. God didn't invent Chemotherapy either.

No. You're the one who made the claim that you can justify that you are god. Therefore, it is up to you to justify that you are god, not up to us to show that you're not.

Let's adjust that a little..

No. You're the one who made the claim that there is a god. Therefore, it is up to you to justify that there is a god, not up to us to show that there isn't

WarEagle · Jul 24, 2007

thinkfreelivefree said:
Just to add a little

God created the ability to sin through "free will"

Sure.

How soon we forget about God killing all the first born Egyptians

What does that have to do with killing "innocent children"? They weren't children and they weren't innocent.

God and Jesus have the "ability" to cure the sick and heal the blind. By not doing so now, isn't that pretty much the same thing?

No.

Let's adjust that a little..

No problem. When I start a thread making the claim that there's a God, I'll be more than happy to present you with a compelling argument that there is a God. Until then, however, it's still up to Zocrates to present an argument for his claims.

tulc · Jul 24, 2007

When did God ever kill "an innocent child"?

Davids first son by Bathsheba?

2 Samuel 12

1And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
9Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
10Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
11Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
24And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him. (emph. added)

tulc(you asked)

ebia · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates said:
I thought god was all-powerful? Wouldn't that mean if god wanted to do something, he could do it?

Like any simplistic idea of the infinite "God is all-powerful" is adquate shorthand, but fails if you press it's limits, just as naive ideas about infinite numbers does. God cannot do the logically impossible, at least within a logically consistent world.

This whole "working on his own time" thing doesn't make sense if he's all powerful and has the means to stop young children from being pelted with stray bullets, run over by trains, or killed slowly by disease.

You don't heal the world but putting band-aids over a few of the gapping wounds. It requires something more drastic, and more long term than that.

You're basically making an excuse for god why these things happen and I'm saying it's wrong to continually make excuses for god when god has nothing to do with why these things happen.

It's equivalent to an abused wife making excuses for her abusive husband when everyone outside of the relationship knows she needs to get out of the reltionship. Meanwhile, the husband keeps promising all these great things all the while slowly beating her to death. I see christians as the abused wives making excuses for their god.

What you are seeing is the wife having problems, and assuming its' because the husband is beating her, when the reality is self abuse and a husband who is trying to get her cured.

The proper Christian response isn't either "God can do what he wants, because..." or God is irrelevent to the questions. God is neither the cause nor irrelevent to the suffering in the world, he is the doctor administering the cure.

My question is why continue to make excuses?

I'm not making excuses, I'm trying to correct a grossly distorted picture of the reality.

Yes, I do have a question. "Why do you continue to make excuses for god?" is my question. When you answer my question, am I not then permitted to respond to it?

The question requires the assumption that one is making excuses in order to be able to answer it. It's rather like being asked "have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

rocklife · Jul 24, 2007

Zocrates said:
319 years of age, why do you ask?

I'm assuming, though, that you're addressing my infantile post. I'll admit it isn't the best argument, but for the sake of my point, I believe it serves a purpose.

If you believe that god can explain all things, then I challenged you to prove that I, Zocrates, cannot do all things as well as, or even better than god himself.

I believe God can, but the bible says that He isn't explaining all things to us now. The Bible describes these times for us like seeing in a mirror dimly. Our best is to trust in Him and what He has already given us and follow in love and truth.

I kind of don't understand what your post is about or what you are saying though, and I am kind of offended by the title, so I don't know if I am being helpful, that's all I could make so far.

Why continue making excuses for god?

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