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The preaching of the gospel to the conversion of sinners, is absolutely free; no way requiring as absolutely necessary, any qualifications, preparations, or terrors of the law, or preceding ministry of the law, but only and alone the naked soul, a sinner and ungodly, to receive Christ crucified, dead and buried, and risen again; who is made a prince and a Savior for such sinners as through the gospel shall be brought to believe on Him.
What's the difference between this link and the "difference one vowel makes?" I believe my question still stands. How were Luther or Calvin explicitly Tradition 1 instead of Tradition 0? I ask in earnest.
don't know anyone here espousing the position that "The Church, the creeds, and the teachings of the early fathers were all considered quaint at best." My point is, the Confessions disagree with one another, and there are different strands of tradition in the Church for certain issues, like the Sabbath, where I believe the individual conscience of the Christian is tried by putting himself back under the bondage of the Law. If this were merely my own opinion, and not one that appears to be seconded by lots of Christian men throughout history, then I would keep silent and change my mind. However, it is not, so how do we deal with this?
Keep in mind some of the signers of the First Confession signed the Second.
Here's a brief review: Modern Reformation - Articles. However I think it's clearer in how Calvin worked: The Institutes is full of references to the Fathers. The Reformers thought they were just pruning late additions to the tradition, not rejecting it. Calvin wrote a confession. He organized a church where ministers were responsible to a larger body. He operated as if theology was a matter for the church community, and tradition was important.
I don't see how this is putting us under the Law. While a few Reformed bodies treat confessions almost as Law, that's not what confessionalism is for most of us. The confessions are a formal, public witness to a living tradition. We're neither legally bound to follow it at all points nor free to operate independent of it. Jesus gives the keys to Peter on behalf of the Church, not to each individual.
People's positions certainly evolve after 4 decades. Does the abrogate the initial confession?
I don't know the answer to the question, so let me ask. Do we know that Sabbatarianism was endorsed by the signers of the 1644, though they did not bring up the topic? Were they more split on the topic in 1644 than they were in 1689 where the Sabbatarians won out?
I forget which confession it was, but there was debate during it where certain members wanted to declare that infants couldn't be saved, but then they moved against it and added a section about elect infants. If this be the case, it is not impossible that a set of anti-sabbitarians had more way a few decades earlier and the sabbatarians won out a bit later. Even those who signed the COnfession did not enter in to it always of one mind.
The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths.
I'm honestly not really grappling with the Sabbath so much now, but to be honest, I don't think I can be consistently Confessional because of that specific issue.
Who has claimed your Pastor is Tradition 0? I have not.However, my question still remains after looking at several of your links. How are Calvin or Luther not Tradition 0 any more than my Pastor?
However, my question still remains after looking at several of your links. How are Calvin or Luther not Tradition 0 any more than my Pastor? They all consult the Church Fathers and tradition, but ultimately did not accede to any tradition from the Church that they felt could not be demonstrated from the Scriptures. For this reason, Calvin rejected prayers to the dead, as the tradition was there but it was opposed to the Scripture. How can we avoid such a conclusion without saying the word "yikes" and ignoring the serious implications?
That was not my point. I perhaps was not clear, in that my point was when someone says they follow no man-made confession, they have made a self-refuting statement. Why? A man makes the statement he follows no man, yet he is himself a man. What he has done is made a confession that he follows no confession. This is double-mindedness and should not be allowed to stand unchallenged. There are many churches who claim to follow no man made creed, but when one gets settled therein they soon find creeds abounding, albeit often unwritten and homegrown, much to the observer's chagrin. The Bible teaches us to confess that which we believe. Paul often spoke of the "pattern" of his teachings. The Reformed community took notice and wrote them down such that which unites us and divides us is clearly stated for instruction, edification, and discipline. Yes, the Reformed community can err by holding these confessions up as superior to their basis, the Bible. But don't let these wayward churches lead you to believe all others do not understand the subordinate place of the confession to Holy Writ.So, when you said, "As soon as someone states 'no obligation to commit myself without reservation to any man-made confession' they have in fact affirmed a confessional statement, to the contrary of their assertion," I interpreted that to mean that my pastor essentially was "solo scriptura."
Take that up with Hedrick who made the claim and has cogently responded.So, if the above at least has some semblance of truth, my question is how is Calvin or Luther any less Solo Scriptura than the elders of my church? All of them would be informed by the tradition of the Church and their reading of the Scripture.
What community did Luther or Calvin stand with explicitly?
What does that last sentence mean? How do you distinguish the groups named from "all legitimate Christians"? Do you truly believe that the RCC and the Reformed claim the same thing? Do you think your pastor is just accepting his own understanding of the Apostolic tradition or is he checking in with what others have to say before binding his conscience?My guess is my pastor's real position is that he accepts what he understands to be the actual beliefs of the Apostles. After all, that what RCCs, Arminians, Reformed Folks, EO, and all legitimate Christians really are claiming.
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