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Why are90%+? of Jews today non-believers in Christ? Please help, I do not understand

Vollkommen Warrior

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Does anyone know? Which tribe or tribes did the apostles (Jewish believers) come from and why the dis-belief, even today - Why could the apostles not convince their own of the truth of Christ?? This is very puzzling to me as I am married into a Jewish family who are good people and accept me as a Christian but seem to have a mental or psychological block when it comes to Jesus and life after death? It is as if..they are computers and saying "Does not compute.":scratch:
 

ZiSunka

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The people we know as Jews today are the descendents of those who rejected Jesus way back 2000 years ago.

A lot of the Jews I know still refuse Jesus, not because they don't think He's the messiah, but because they either believe that their Tradition does not allow them to believe, or the just don't care one way or another about Him. Many who do believe he is the messiah don't become Christians because they fear rejecting all the tradition of Judaism or facing the displeasure of their Jewish families.
 
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KelsayDL

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For one, all of the Jews did not reject Jesus as the messiah, clear your head of that theology, because it's wrong, and leads to incidents such as the holocaust. All of the Apostles were Jews. In acts it is recorded that thousands of Jews in the city of Jerusalem alone were believers in the Messiahship of Jesus. Today there are 10's of thousands of Jews throughout the world who claim Jesus as their messiah.

The way I see it is...

Todays church and the church of the apostles and first disciples are vastly different. There is more than enough biblical and historical evidence to say that.

The church (for the most part) teaches that the death of Jesus did away with the "old law", that is blasphemy to them. And for good reason.

If you read deuteronomy chpt. 13, you will see why.

Jesus himself said he did not come to do away with the law (IMO precisely because of deut. 13), told the people to observe and obey that which the pharisees instructed them to, and walked in accordance to the eternal laws of God without err.

The church is guilty of preaching a messiah that is contrary to the word of God. So how could he be the Messiah?

Everytime I see the church trying to ram a gentilized Messiah down the throats of the Jews, I'm reminded of when Jesus said;

Mt 7:6 -
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I've really got to ask myself what he was thinking when he said this.

But thats all just my opinion and ponderings. Those of Jewish descent can give a far better answer than I.
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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KelsayDL said:
The church (for the most part) teaches that the death of Jesus did away with .....
If you read deuteronomy.....

Jesus himself said ....
This is an interesting view..Thanks, I will have to think about this more..Ok, I totally disagree with this interpretation. Sounds islamic to me. Are you a follower of Islam?
KelsayDL said:
The church is guilty of .......

Everytime I see the church trying to ram ..
Hmm.... Just thought about this. Jesus did say that he died so that sins may be forgiven...I will pray for you, you sound like you may be bitter but I hope not.

"A lot of the Jews I know still refuse Jesus, not because they don't think He's the messiah, but because they either believe that their Tradition does not allow them to believe, or the just don't care one way or another about Him. Many who do believe he is the messiah don't become Christians because they fear rejecting all the tradition of Judaism or facing the displeasure of their Jewish families."

First-hand, I can tell you this makes very much sense.Perhaps it is because the church is so different from the synagogue that the fear of tradition rejection comes into play? I also wonder why the disparity or when and how this differences took place if it in fact was the Jews who started teaching the new testament? I mean, there wouldn't be a difference in teachings if the Jews accepted Christ as a part of their teachings from the start correct? I am not trying to point the finger or blame anyone, I am just trying to figure out a way into these peoples hearts by understanding a little more about why they think the way they do. (Specifically, the Jews who do not believe/and or/ care that Christ is the messiah - because these are family members of mine and all of the ones that I know personally. I know part of this must be because their synagogue does not teach of the truth in Christ?).
 
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St-Irénée

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KelsayDL said:
For one, all of the Jews did not reject Jesus as the messiah, clear your head of that theology, because it's wrong, and leads to incidents such as the holocaust

So Hitler hated Jews because they didn't accept Christ? Is that the "historical" evidence you are talking about? :rolleyes:

Todays church and the church of the apostles and first disciples are vastly different. There is more than enough biblical and historical evidence to say that.

Hmmm....


The church is guilty of preaching a messiah that is contrary to the word of God. So how could he be the Messiah?

Which "church" is that?
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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"I would like to ask if you have ever read any Jewish testemonies regarding how a Jew has come to know their Messiah, as Yeshua, Jesus? These can be very enlightening."-Sonworshipper

Thank you (I like your name btw)! No I would like to know more of this. Can I find this here on the forum? I will look in the meantime.:)
 
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KelsayDL

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This is an interesting view..Thanks, I will have to think about this more..Ok, I totally disagree with this interpretation. Sounds islamic to me. Are you a follower of Islam?

No. Are you a mormon?

If it sounds islamic to you, perhaps you need to re-address your knowledge of Islam.

You asked a question. I answered it, for the part I know.

I know for a fact one of the main reasons Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah is the churches teaching the law is done away with, as I have sat through teachings from Messianic Jews who cited it as one of and quite possibly the number one biblical reason the Jews reject Jesus. At least the Jesus taught by the majority of the church.

Again, read deut 13 if you want to know why they think this way.


Are you here to ask questions where the only answers you will accept are the ones you are comfortable with...?

If you want to know one of the reasons the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. Simply read deut 13, and then factor in the teachings of 95% of todays church and you will have part of what you search for.

Peace.
 
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iitb

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Let me see if I can answer a couple of these questions...

Sp0ck said:
Which tribe or tribes did the apostles (Jewish believers) come from and why the dis-belief, even today - Why could the apostles not convince their own of the truth of Christ??

Well, considering that Y'shua(Jesus) showed up after the 10 northern tribes "got lost," the apostles had to be from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi. Why they couldn't convince their own people of his Messiahship depends on what you consider the job of Messiah ben Joseph to have been. Here are a couple of theories(excuse the lack of support. I'm at work and don't have the time or resources available right now):

1. Some feel that his job was to lead the gentiles to YHVH, and that upon his return as Messiah ben David the Jews would be included.

2. The much more controversial(did I spell that right?) "Two Houses Theory." When Y'shua claimed that he came for the lost sheep of Israel, who was he referring to? Some claim that he meant the 10 lost tribes, and only after those tribes return to the land can He return as Messiah ben David.

This is very puzzling to me as I am married into a Jewish family who are good people and accept me as a Christian but seem to have a mental or psychological block when it comes to Jesus and life after death? It is as if..they are computers and saying "Does not compute.":scratch:

Well, as for life after death, you have to realize that your Jewish family doesn't accept the "New Testament" as Scripture, and the "Old Testament" doesn't really say anything about the topic.

As far as acceptance of Y'shua goes, well, quite a bit of evil has been done to the Jews in the name of Jesus. I think I've seen it mentioned somewhere else in this forum that Jews who consider Bar Kochva or Rabbi Sneerson to be the promised Messiah are welcomed into the Synagogue, but those who follow Y'shua are often considered "traitors."

I could be wrong about any or all of this, so feel free to correct me!

Justin
 
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simchat_torah

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Why could the apostles not convince their own of the truth of Christ??
The apostles in fact did convince a rather large and quick spreading movement of 'messianic' jews in the first two centuries. It wasn't until paganism and antisemetism were introduced that those flames were smothered.
==============
The church (for the most part) teaches that the death of Jesus did away with the "old law", that is blasphemy to them.
================

This is an interesting view..Thanks, I will have to think about this more..Ok, I totally disagree with this interpretation. Sounds islamic to me. Are you a follower of Islam?
I'm not sure how that aligns with Islam. However, to the Jew the Torah is eternal. G-d said his laws would last forever. When a christian says, "Those old laws are done away with" it is foreign to the Jewish mindset. As Kelsay put it "blasphemy".
You see, the Messiah was to come and teach how to live according to the Torah, not abolish it. Yet the christian teaches that their acclaimed messaih abolished the Torah. Thus a contradiction occurs and they reject the christian claims.

There are other reasons today why Jews reject christianity... but mainly it's history that keeps them far from anything remotely "christian". History of christian anti-semitism. Not just in practice but in theology as well. The Christian says they have replaced the Jew as the people of G-d (this is called replacement theology). Then toss into the mix the actual persecution of the Jews by the church itself... and well, you get the picture.

It's not easy for a Jew to even consider Yeshua as the Messiah... let alone to proclaim it in their life.
So Hitler hated Jews because they didn't accept Christ? Is that the "historical" evidence you are talking about?
St. Irene, I'd reccomend you check out a few books, starting with "Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" by Michael Brown. Hitler attributed his antisemetism to christian concepts that the "Jews killed the messiah" and borrowed his practices entirely from Martin Luther.
Here, just take a look at Luther's comments:
1543: Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to
Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Christians do with this ******, rejected race of Jews?
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed...
They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in
which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach
any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden
to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables
of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe
keeping...

Do we merely rely the inconspicuous simmilarities between Luther and Hitler? Or shall we flip to the front of Mein Kampf where Hitler himself dedicates the book to Luther???

St. Irene, do your homework.

Last thing...
...as I have sat through teachings from Messianic Jews who cited it as one of and quite possibly the number one biblical reason the Jews reject Jesus.
I would say that in history this may have been true, but today it's more because of antisemetic doctrines and antisemetic history practiced by the "church".

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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simchat_torah
Thanks for your insight. I did not consider the persecution of the Jews by Christians themselves! Although terrible, it does explain a lot. I do not know of a church that ignores the Torah, they just call it the part of the bible in reference to the old testament perhaps. What bothers me as well is synagogues that totally leave out Jesus without recognizing who he was. Last of all, I am still wondering why we are bringing up Hitler. Surely no one here has any connection or support of that philosophy. I just felt that comment was waay out there.

I am not sure where the persecution started. It was wrong in any event but I wonder if it was in retaliation to a non-acceptance of Christ. The other part that is somewhat confusing is that if the apostles were Jews themselves, then why would Christians think they were replacements? I thought this was after the/some Jews decided not to accept Christ but I don't know for certain. Again, your analysis makes sense to me in todays day and time but I question the timeline of events leading up and how they came to pass.

justinhulsey
Thank you as well. I just wish there were an easier way to win them over.:sigh:

Lastly, I also did not want to stir up any hatred toward the church on this thread. I hope that some of you don't feel that bad toward brothers in Christ. Take care!
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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Some of us need to search our hearts. After searching the forum looking for some answers I have come across several threads that explain the tone this thread has taken by some. I happen to agree with the statement someone made: "The torah is now Jesus Himself. No longer a precept, but a person."

"The Holy SPIRIT himself is the Torah,
He is a person."

To me this is a very special thing that occured. I don't know why it would divide so many of us. But what two fellows have stated here is that it is the argument that the emphasis is Torah VS Jesus. I am amazed IF (only if) there is anger and anymosity among believers concerning the subject. I do know it was predicted that the coming of Christ would divide us. If I must pick sides, I would be on the side of being a friend with Christ as the center of it all. It is almost as if some are angered (after reading other posts on the forum) that Christ came and have a chip on the shoulder.

I will watch and study this but it seems like pride getting in the way more than anything. Again, this is not meant for you or anyone here personally unless you see yourself this way. I am however, afraid that folks like this will never see the true light of the Lord. If this is the case, then there is nothing I can do for my family.

You see, when Christ came, it did change everything. No need to tally up scores and compare ourselves to our brothers and sisters. More like, be the best person you can be and love your neighbor and the rest will come along!! I am thinking out-loud but again, I have no agenda here I don't need to be right either but I search to find the truth and thank you all for helping me get closer!
 
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simchat_torah

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Shalom Sp0ck,
I have gone back and edited my last post... hehe, while you were editing yours I think. Ironic? ;)
It might make a bit more sense... and as well I noticed I misplaced a slash or two and messed up the html code. It should be easier to read now.
Where did Hitler came into it? You wanted to know why the Jews avoid anything 'christian-like' as if it were the plague. Hitler is an excellent reason why. His connection to christianity and his outright self proclaimed christian influence (see mein kampf - he dedicates the book to Martin Luther.... where he also got many of his ideas for the Holocaust). Hitler is a prime example of Replacement theology and what it can do if exercised to it's fullest.
Don't be fooled, nearly every major christian denomination today entertains replacement theology in its doctrine.
None the less... here's a few more shinning examples from christian history to show you why the Jews will avoid "christianity". Again, these are merely a few examples:
367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people
who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue;
he referred to it as
"an act pleasing to God.

415: St.Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot,who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St.Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue:
"If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's
fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable
disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it
deserves."

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target.
As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!"
12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade.
This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central
synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude
because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose
death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..." thus began the slavery of Jewish people to Catholics in the 13th century.

1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries (hmmm.... sounds familiar, eh nazis?)

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.

1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans.
As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame.
They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews.
In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000;
Rue Brule...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned.
In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
(the list goes on and on and on... sad isn't it)

1543: Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to
Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Christians do with this ******, rejected race of Jews?
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed...
They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in
which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach
any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden
to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
(Hitler thanks Luther for the above passage in Mein Kampf)
Now, here's where you get to answer a question:

When Y'shua said, "I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it" what did he mean? (matt. 5:17)

Think carefully. It will determine both the perception you have of the messiah as well as guide the course of this discussion.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
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simchat_torah

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Shalom Sp0ck,

I see a lot of misunderstanding behind your words.

No need to tally up scores and compare ourselves to our brothers and sisters.

The Torah never instructed us to do that, nor do Jews teach to do such. It's a non-existent strawman you've created.... or shall I say "one that christianity created"?

More like, be the best person you can be and love your neighbor and the rest will come along!!

Love your neighbor: a command in the Torah
Love your G-d: a command in the torah.
"the rest will come along"

May I ask you what the "rest" is? How does Yeshua define it? And by the way, was that analogy he used unique? If so, how did he mean for us to understand it? IF not, then what was the moral he was borrowing by quoting another?

Ahhh... I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just start with the basic question restated again:
When Y'shua said, "I have not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it" what did he mean? (matt. 5:17)

Shalom Sp0ck,
Yafet.
 
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Vollkommen Warrior

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"Hitler is an excellent reason why. His connection to christianity and his outright self proclaimed christian influence"

I think Hitler is just an choice/excuse/scapegoat for avoiding Jesus. Hitler's philosophy does not represent any Christian I know. I could as easily say the Howard Stern represents all Jews so I will never be open to the ideas of the old Testament. I personally believe that Jesus is the incarnation of the Torah as predicted. Therefore, it went through a transformation. It is easy for me to say this because my identity does not necessarily equate to the scrolls.

Do the commandments still apply? Of course they do. However, now it is in the spirit of the law rather than the letter. I do not wish to debate this with you but do again thank you for the insight as to why many Jews do not want to truely accept Christ. I see part of it as a matter of pride and perhaps identity in not willing to move ahead to the new. God bless all and take care. Again thanks for your comments!:)

Again, I would like to quote someone else bec I think they summarized the theology quite well:

"Let me see if I can communicate my thoughts on why Jesus and his disciples were blameless in not observing the letter of the law.

I believe there are two aspects of the law; the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Jesus identifies the Pharisees as being concerned with the letter of the law and not the spirit of the law. The Sabbath, Jesus tells us, was for the man and not the man for the Sabbath. The Pharisees did not see it this way.

You mentioned that David and the priest were blameless because they were ‘clean’ and therefore did not profane the Sabbath. While this is true for David it was not the reason the priest were blameless. Look at why the priest were lighting fires and cooking on the Sabbath; it was because they were commanded to. They were blameless because they did the will of God through the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. This is the reason Jesus was blameless for not observing the Sabbath. Jesus kept the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. Jesus was sinless not because he kept the law but because he obeyed the Father. What God commanded him to do that was what he did.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Jesus taught that the spirit of the law was based on love, that the letter of the law was written to teach love. Jesus fulfilled the law and brought love to our hearts through the Holy Spirit."

Again, I was taken back a bit by DL's spirited post. I know he meant well. Somehow we have gotten a bit off course in debating law vs Jesus. I wish not to debate this with you but to again thank you for your comments and ask anyone else to add any additional NEW ideas or reasons for differences.

My original question has been answered in a couple of ways thanks to you all but I do not want to get into a first hand spirited debate on any of those issues. The purpose of this thread was to get some ideas as to why the lack of connectivity between the two religions again, not to begin debating them.
 
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SonWorshipper

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Let's kep it civil in here and remember that this is not IDD, nor OBOB.


Spock, as far as the testimonies, here are some links, This first one is from Jews for Jesus, different from Messianic Judaism, but the same regarding the faith in Messiah.


Testimonies by Professions

There you can read the testimonies of Artists, Doctors, lawyers, Musicians, Scientists, all Jewish! Now in love with their Messiah!

Testimonies by Country

Click on that one above for testimonies by country, very interesting indeed!

Testimonies by Holocaust survivors

That one is a very sad one, Holocaust survivors, be sure to read the one title, "I escaped from Hitler twice" :(

From surviving Kristallnacht to escaping from being sent to the camps and then to america , and back to Germany as an Jewish American CAPTURED soldier. :( Oh the L-rd was surely with him!:clap:


That should be enough to get you started.

Shalom!
 
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SonWorshipper

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Here are a few more, just click on their pictures when you get there

http://www.messianicbible.com/testimonies.asp?who=garbere

Here is a short version about one I know personally

Miller, a Jew who claims Jesus is Messiah, is host of the syndicated radio program ``Messianic Minutes'' heard on nearly 100 Christian stations nationwide. He travels the country from his home in Reading, Penn., where he spent years in the secular broadcasting industry as a radio and television talk show host, news anchor and general manager. He also served as assistant to the mayor of Reading. His ministry has been featured on national television several times, including ``The 700 Club.'' Born and raised a Jew, Miller turned away from God at an early age becoming an avowed atheist. As an adult, he thought his secular humanist ways were the key to his exciting career in broadcasting. But in 1983, at the age of 36, Miller had an encounter with the living God and surrendered his heart to Jeshua (Jesus), the Jewish Messiah. :)

Here's a link to his Radio show

http://www.messianicminutes.com/hosts.html
 
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Woodsy

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There are some excellent posts here in this thread - Kelsay and Simchat Torah come to mind.

I think there are some important points to be remembered:

1a. Jesus' message was first presented only to Jews.
1b. Not everyone accepted HIm or His message.
1c. Therefore, everyone who rejected His messgae was Jewish.
However...
1d. everyone who accepted His message was also Jewish!
1e. So; The Jews didn't reject Yeshua - the Jews who rejected Yeshua rejected Yeshua! In other words, one subset of Jews accepted Him, while another subset rejected Him.

2a. Most Jews in America today are secular - they have rejected Torah. Most are also woefully ignorant about Judaism. They rely upon prejudices passed down to them by past generations of Jews who in all likelihood suffered at the hands of Russian or Polish mobs who thought they were inflicting just punishment on "the synagogue of Satan" and the "brood of vipers" who were They had been taught that Jews were Christ-killers and hated by Christ. The hateful words of Martin Luther (quoted above) certainly backed them up in their interpretation of scripture.
2b. In addition, the message constantly received from secular culture is that Christianity is an oppressive, bloodthirsty religion. Of course, the secularists teach that about Judaism also, but not as bad.

3. I agree that Jews need to accept Yeshua as Messiah. But I believe that various forms of Christianity have done a terrible job of handling their relationships with the Jews. The words of Luther demonstrate this, as well as the public words of so many other Christians.
Jews do not have the fullness of Truth, but neither did Yeshua command His followers to kill them.

It's kind of funny, the knee-jerk, strong negative reactions so many Christians on this board (not all, certainly) seem to have to Messianic Judaism. I don't agree with all the positions of most Messianic Jews, but the emotional reaction so many people have against MJs often seems more intense than the reactions people have against Pagans, Wiccans, etc.

I myself have conflicting feelings, partly due, I think, to my Jewish heritage. And, of course, I have to wonder, what if they're right?

Peace out, y'all.
 
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