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Why are you an evolutionist?

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whois

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yes, it would seem as such.
i perfectly understand what evolution says, and i'll agree it makes all the sense in the world.
i question this assumed "mountain of evidence".

a good example would be, the sun rising tomorrow.
there is evidence that says it should, but there is exactly zero evidence that says it will.
saying the sun will rise tomorrow is an assumption, you have every reason to believe it will, but it's an assumption nonetheless.
the same general type of thing can be said about evolution.
given the rules and laws of chemistry, and how these things hook together, coupled with things like miller-urey, it's easy to assume life can arise and evolve.
but until this is proven, it's an assumption.
 
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.Mikha'el.

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The Barbarian

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the question really isn't about god.
the question is one of proof.
there simply isn't any, apparently we don't even have a plausible scenario of how it could have happened.

That's completely wrong. But pick any step in the evolution of any organism from any suppossed ancestral form that you think is not possible, and we'll test your belief.
 
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The Barbarian

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No, it's an inference based on a mountain of evidence. So much evidence, that (like evolution) it's foolish to deny it.

Inductive reasoning might seem like foolishness to you, but it's the way all of us live our lives. And it's remarkably effective. All of science works by induction, and it has been very successful in predicting and understanding the world.

the same general type of thing can be said about evolution.
given the rules and laws of chemistry, and how these things hook together, coupled with things like miller-urey, it's easy to assume life can arise and evolve.

Live did arise. And God says He did it using nature. And since evolution has been directly observed, that seems like pretty good evidence, too.
 
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The Barbarian

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Heissonear

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Ella,
Nice reply.

Do read posts of those who "do not see God around". They are "godless in this world and in actions".

I'm not going to divulge information for them, they are bias and will trash what they hear. What has been "given from above" to them means hallucinations, imagination, believing it so to make it so, and so on.

Yes, something with a price tag that reflects enormous value to obtain is treated as less than a dime right here in front of you. They are perched here to knock such down. Unbelief has them. They only can view from what the dust that they are composed of can acquire.

I can say some things on Christian Forums in macro-level, but the intricacies are not for the ungodly to handle and defile. Do you understand this? And are you able to recognize Psalms 1:1 not working in someone life or various posts?

When I say there is more to learn and know, all the gold in this world does not compare to its value.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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So basically, you don't want to say what you know because you know that people will question what you claim (which is a good thing with regards to science), and you just want to live in an echo chamber where you only hear good things people say about your sources.
 
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The Barbarian

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I can say some things on Christian Forums in macro-level, but the intricacies are not for the ungodly to handle and defile. Do you understand this? And are you able to recognize Psalms 1:1 not working in someone life or various posts?

By their fruits you will know them.

Luke 10:36 Which of these three, in thy opinion, was neighbour to him that fell among the robbers? 37 But he said: He that shewed mercy to him. And Jesus said to him: Go, and do thou in like manner.
 
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whois

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That's completely wrong. But pick any step in the evolution of any organism from any suppossed ancestral form that you think is not possible, and we'll test your belief.
this particular issue concerns abiogenesis and was a dialog addressed to someone else.
but, if you must:
Despite many interesting results to its credit, when judged by the straightforward criterion of reaching (or even approaching) the ultimate goal, the origin of life field is a failure – we still do not have even a plausible coherent model, let alone a validated scenario, for the emergence of life on Earth.
-Eugene V. Koonin, molecular biologist, The Logic of Chance: The Nature and Origin of Biological Evolution (Upper Saddle River, NJ: FT Press, 2011), 391

as to the other:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/15314671_The_Major_Evolutionary_Transitions
 
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TLK Valentine

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Sounds like you've got a problem with believing the sun will rise tomorrow.

It should, and it will, unless something stops it.

So... what would stop the rules and laws of chemistry?
 
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whois

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i stand by my claim:
we have every reason to expect the sun to rise tomorrow and no reason to believe it will.
doing such a thing is predicting the future, are you saying science can do this?
i am not talking about "it should", i am talking about "it will".
the best science can do in this regard is to say "short of some catastrophe the sun will rise tomorrow"
 
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whois

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Done.

Summary of evidence showing humans and chimps are an evolutionary group, with other apes as an outgroup:
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1746.full
like i have stated before, if these methods are not tested on other lifeforms besides apes and humans, how are we to know the method is valid?

from the conclusions:
However, despite decades of research on wild and captive chimpanzees, our overall knowledge about the chimpanzee phenome is very incomplete (Gagneux 2004; Olson and Varki 2004; McConkey and Varki 2005). Studies of intra-specific variation among great apes are in their infancy, and biomedical and physiological data are few. This lack of comparative phenotypic data represents a serious knowledge imbalance. Better phenomic data would enhance our ability to make additional, focused choices for candidate gene studies, and also increase our understanding of the biochemical consequences of any genomic changes we do find.
-ibid.
 
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TLK Valentine

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And what's the best you can do?
 
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whois

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Sounds like you've got a problem with believing the sun will rise tomorrow.

It should, and it will, unless something stops it.

So... what would stop the rules and laws of chemistry?
there are a number of things that can stop the evolution of life from the elements.
a couple of the most obvious:
the separation, and incorporation of a single handed molecule into the nucleotide strand.

a reaction that requires an acidic solution to be immediately followed by an alkaline solution.
 
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The Barbarian

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i stand by my claim:
we have every reason to expect the sun to rise tomorrow and no reason to believe it will.

Of course we do. Physics and astronomy have established that it's far to small to go through any catastrophic changes. And the evidence is overwhelming.

doing such a thing is predicting the future

It's what science is good at. Well over a hundred years ago, Huxley predicted dinosaurs with feathers, even though he had nothing but his comparative anatomical data to support him. He turned out right. Wegener, long before anyone had any sort of data showing it could happen, predicted that the continents were at one time joined together. Turns out, he was right. About 300 BC, Eratosthenes of Alexandria predicted that when someone finally got around the world, it would be about 25,000 miles in circumference. He was right. Long before we had instruments capable of confirming the fact, (about 400 BC) Democritus of Abdera (based on experiments) predicted that all matter was composed of very tiny particles he called "atoms." Turns out his prediction was correct. In the 19th century Arrhenius predicted that rising carbon dioxide levels would warm the planet. He was correct. In 1705, Edmond Halley, using Newton's theory of gravitation and Kepler's laws of planetary motion, predicted the year of return for the comet now named after him. He was right.

are you saying science can do this?

Routinely does this.
 
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The Barbarian

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There's a huge body of data showing that all the compounds necessary for initiation of life on Earth are formed abiotically. If that's not good enough for you, perhaps God's statement that the earth brought forth life, is a better source.
 
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The Barbarian

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like i have stated before, if these methods are not tested on other lifeforms besides apes and humans, how are we to know the method is valid?

You said humans and chimps. I showed you that the it also works for all apes. I also showed you that it works for the genus Equus. Would you like some more examples?

And recently, the chimp genome has been sequenced, so that excuse won't work, either.
 
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whois

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There's a huge body of data showing that all the compounds necessary for initiation of life on Earth are formed abiotically. If that's not good enough for you, perhaps God's statement that the earth brought forth life, is a better source.
i've seen no evidence at all that DNA can arise abiotically.

what, exactly, are these required components?

the only lab test i've seen is the miller-urey experiment, and it only produced a racemic blend of amino acids.
it's impossible for life to arise under these conditions.
even if this blend was separated, research shows the resulting RNA world hypothesis is a failure.
 
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