Why are some trying to fool us about chilioi(thousand) in the NT?

sovereigngrace · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
Thanks for that, you addressed my question perfectly.
So the Amils can't have a literal 1000 year reign due to the non-literal nature of the Amil position?

Not so! But, rather, because they interpret Scripture with Scripture. When that happens you can only come to one conclusion in regard to Revelation 20 - that it relates to the intra-Advent period. Premillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by their opinion of Revelation 20. That is why their hermeneutics are messed up.

DavidPT · Jun 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so! But because they interprets Scripture with Scripture. When that happens you can only come to one conclusion in regard to Revelation 20. Premillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by Revelation 20. Their hermeneutics are messed up.

and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

This is meaning they are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast. In order for Amil to even work, this 42 month reign of the beast HAS to be after the thousand years. But how can it be when Revelation 20:4 is telling us that the 42 month reign of the beast is already fulfilled and in the past before satan is even loosed from the pit?

What's in question, when are these martyred? The answer to that will then tell us whether we should be concluding Premil or Amil.

1)Before the thousand years

2) During the thousand years

3) after the thousand years

If, when they are martyred occurs during either 2) or 3), what one then has to conclude is Amil. Keeping in mind though, if they are martyred during the thousand years this would indicate that the 42 month reign of the beast is running in parallel with the thousand years. Maybe that makes sense to some of you, but it doesn't make sense to me.

If, when they are martyred occurs during 1), what one then has to conclude is Premil.

It's that simple. What then is Revelation 20:4 telling us about the timing of the 42 month reign of the beast?

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
Revelation does not say "as is" yet you want to except it as it does. I've learned long ago what day it is. Maybe you will start understanding it soon.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.".

I believe I mentioned Peter and let’s try not to devolve this conversation into condescending remarks...
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Not so! But because they interprets Scripture with Scripture. When that happens you can only come to one conclusion in regard to Revelation 20. Premillennialists interpret Revelation 20 by Revelation 20. Their hermeneutics are messed up.

The Premils also claim that Scripture interprets Scripture but go further to show that OT prophecies have had a literal fulfillment so why not continue in that vein using the dozens of OT prophecies promising a Kingdom with a King and specific Land names?

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
If from man's perspective, one were to say---one day is to us as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day, would that person be using a simile---resulting in, that this person never actually meant 24 hours = 1 day?

What I don't understand, if that is what the logic would be if coming from our perspective, and that we then apply this same exact logic in the exact same manner to God's perspective in 2 Peter 3:8, how can we then arrive at different conclusions concerning both? Per the former a simile is not meant, but that it is meaning one day literally means 24 hours, but when we apply this in the same manner to 2 Peter 3:8 though, now it's a simile, now it's not meant to be taken literally, that one day is meaning 1000 years, even though per the former the exact opposite would be true.

Seems like the same mindset that comes up with an Old Earth theory, rather than taking one day = evening and morning. When one spiritualizes, the text becomes Silly Putty in the interpreter’s hands.

DavidPT · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
Seems like the same mindset that comes up with an Old Earth theory, rather than taking one day = evening and morning. When one spiritualizes, the text becomes Silly Putty in the interpreter’s hands.

Before you jump to the wrong conclusions here, IMO a thousand years being one day mainly has to do with prophetic events, plus letting us know how many years are involved until the end of this age. As to the days of creation, there was nothing prophetic about them. Each day literally meant 24 hours. Plus we have to use common sense as well. For example..

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

One would not be using good common sense if they were to apply 2 Peter 3:8 to this verse.

BABerean2 · Jun 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
In order for Amil to even work, this 42 month reign of the beast HAS to be after the thousand years.

Can the word "thousand" be used symbolically in the Book of Revelation?

Is there any place in the Old Testament where we find exactly twelve thousand members of any of the twelve tribes?

In the Book of Revelation why are there exactly twelve thousand in each of the twelve tribes, if the number is not being used in a symbolic manner?

Do the twelve tribes of Israel exist as pure bloodlines of people in the modern world? Go to the modern State of Israel and ask people what tribe they belong to if you want the answer to the question.

Therefore, the number "thousand" is used symbolically in the text below.

Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev_7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

.

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Before you jump to the wrong conclusions here, IMO a thousand years being one day mainly has to do with prophetic events, plus letting us know how many years are involved until the end of this age. As to the days of creation, there was nothing prophetic about them. Each day literally meant 24 hours. Plus we have to use common sense as well. For example..

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

One would not be using good common sense if they were to apply 2 Peter 3:8 to this verse.

That was my point.

sovereigngrace · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
Seems like the same mindset that comes up with an Old Earth theory, rather than taking one day = evening and morning. When one spiritualizes, the text becomes Silly Putty in the interpreter’s hands.

So, where, outside of the highly symbolic setting of Revelation 20, did the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the New Testament writers mention this supposed literal thousand years period? The burden of proof is with you.

Radagast · Jun 18, 2020

DamianWarS said:
the plural is years not thousands. adjectives only carry what their noun counterpart has.

My point was that if you have more than 1 of something, it is plural, and the adjective is plural.

DamianWarS said:
The Judges example is indefinite itself which kind of defeats the point being made.

It doesn't defeat my point.

DamianWarS said:
it is also a noun where the Rev 20 example is an adjective.

I was responding to a claim that you made specifically about nouns.

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Can the word "thousand" be used symbolically in the Book of Revelation?

Is there any place in the Old Testament where we find exactly twelve thousand members of any of the twelve tribes?

In the Book of Revelation why are there exactly twelve thousand in each of the twelve tribes, if the number is not being used in a symbolic manner?

Do the twelve tribes of Israel exist as pure bloodlines of people in the modern world? Go to the modern State of Israel and ask people what tribe they belong to if you want the answer to the question.

Therefore, the number "thousand" is used symbolically in the text below.

Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev_7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

.

Would you at least take the Tribe names as literal? If so, why one and not the other?

Radagast · Jun 18, 2020

shilohsfoal said:
What Jesus was saying is he would be casting out devils and healing the sick for 2000 years and after that he will reach his goal.

I disagree with your interpretation of Luke 13.

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
So, where, outside of the highly symbolic setting of Revelation 20, did the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the New Testament writers mention this supposed literal thousand years period? The burden of proof is with you.

Just as the Prophets prophesied about the 1st Coming of Christ, they also prophesied about a Coming Kingdom which is yet to come to pass. But I can't and won't say it is a spiritual or literal 1000 years, only that the event itself is literal.

DavidPT · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
That was my point.

Just so you and I are are on the same page here. The only thing I'm arguing is that in 2 Peter 3:8 one day means a literal thousand years. As to what is being argued in regards to Luke 13, I'm not arguing for or against any of those arguments from either side. Currently I have formed no opinion one way or the other as to how those verses in question should be interpreted. Not anything I have really thought all that much about as of yet.

crossnote · Jun 18, 2020

DavidPT said:
Just so you and I are are on the same page here. The only thing I'm arguing is that in 2 Peter 3:8 one day means a literal thousand years. As to what is being argued in regards to Luke 13, I'm not arguing for or against any of those arguments from either side. Currently I have formed no opinion one way or the other as to how those verses in question should be interpreted. Not anything I have really thought all that much about as of yet.

I hadn't looked at Luke 13...
And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.
(Luk 13:32)
But reading it in the normal sense, Jesus is referring to His upcoming crucifixion, or are we to spiritualize the 'third day' and say He is coming back after 3000 years...I don't think so.
I will go with this...
John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

shilohsfoal · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
I hadn't looked at Luke 13...
And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.
(Luk 13:32)
But reading it in the normal sense, Jesus is referring to His upcoming crucifixion, or are we to spiritualize the 'third day' and say He is coming back after 3000 years...I don't think so.
I will go with this...
John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Like I said. I hope you understand it someday soon.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

shilohsfoal · Jun 18, 2020

Radagast said:
I disagree with your interpretation of Luke 13.

You can disagree all you want.
I learned these things about 20 years ago. I understood them before I read Barnabus. Now that was wild to read him say what t I already knew but it confirmed what I had learned.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

DavidPT · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
I hadn't looked at Luke 13...
And he said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course.
(Luk 13:32)
But reading it in the normal sense, Jesus is referring to His upcoming crucifixion, or are we to spiritualize the 'third day' and say He is coming back after 3000 years...I don't think so.
I will go with this...
John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

In what way are connecting John 19:30 with a 3rd day? But there is a 3rd connected with that, but that would be when He rises not when He dies. Even that presents a problem with the interpretation, since 2 of those days, which would be represented by today and tomorrow, He would be dead during, thus not performing cures during that time. One thing that seems obvious then, regardless that I haven't really thought much about this passage as of yet, three 24 hour days can't be meant.

DavidPT · Jun 18, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Can the word "thousand" be used symbolically in the Book of Revelation?

Is there any place in the Old Testament where we find exactly twelve thousand members of any of the twelve tribes?

In the Book of Revelation why are there exactly twelve thousand in each of the twelve tribes, if the number is not being used in a symbolic manner?

Do the twelve tribes of Israel exist as pure bloodlines of people in the modern world? Go to the modern State of Israel and ask people what tribe they belong to if you want the answer to the question.

Therefore, the number "thousand" is used symbolically in the text below.

Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev_7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev_7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

.

I don't disagree with you here. Yet I don't understand how this might solve the problem I raised, in regards to the martyrs in Revelation 20:4, as to when they are martyred? One thing that seems obvious, something one shouldn't even be disputing, they are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast and that they are already martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is even loosed from the pit. This indicates there are only two places their martyrdom can fit, meaning when they are martyred. Either before the thousand years. Or during the thousand years.

If the latter this would indicate this martyrdom is taking place while satan is in the pit, and that this 42 month reign is running in parallel with the thousand years. This would indicate satan is waging war while he is in the pit rather than waging war while he is not in the pit. satan waging war makes sense both before the thousand years and after the thousand years, but not during the thousand years.

sovereigngrace · Jun 18, 2020

crossnote said:
Just as the Prophets prophesied about the 1st Coming of Christ, they also prophesied about a Coming Kingdom which is yet to come to pass. But I can't and won't say it is a spiritual or literal 1000 years, only that the event itself is literal.

So, you just totally avoided my simple question. I will take your avoidance as a concession that you (or no Premil) has an answer for that crucial and elementary question.

Why are some trying to fool us about chilioi(thousand) in the NT?

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