Why are so many against reformed Theology…

Al Touthentop said:

I provided the exactly the context you are complaining I left out, which says exactly what you are asserting here. Maybe you need to re-read it.

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NO you assume you proved it and you proved Nothing but your opinion and that you eisegete the word of God.

Albion said:

No, but I do see how you have misunderstood all of that.

God can indeed give commandments. Man is indeed capable of keeping God's commandments.

None of that, however, is about God saving anyone.

Yet God also says he will save, so this thread is a discussion about that.

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God says that the person who obeys him and keeps his commandments is saved.

1Reformedman said:

NO you assume you proved it and you proved Nothing but your opinion and that you eisegete the word of God.

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I'm not talking about proof. I'm saying that we're saying the same thing. Jesus says the same thing and I quoted him saying so. You then complained that I took things out of context even though the context I provided AGREES with what you just said.

98cwitr said:

Okay, so you and I have common ground in that God's foreknowledge is real and spans eternity. Therefore, I will ask a second question: Did God create your granddaughter? Or do you have another theological view on the matter?

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Complex - Adam was "created". Eve, having been "removed" from Adam, lessening him in the process is a rather "Special case" not repeated, but Cain, wasn't "Created, he was "Begotten" as a result of normal physical means - just like my granddaughter was. so NO - My granddaughter wasn't "Created" in the adamic sense.

However, She WAS "Known", even before she was conceived (Jer 1:5).

1Reformedman said:

Im going to give you a command and I want you to tell me where in that command do you get your natural moral ability to obey that command.

I command you to build an atom bomb.

Where in that command do you find the natural moral ability to obey that command?


YOU DONT BECAUSE ITS NOT FOUND THERE. You are assuming that you are able without evidence to back it. . . You see, God commands us to believe but the ability to obey that command does not come from your natural moral ability but instead, it comes from the Grace of God in regeneration. You cant see the kingdom of God let alone enter is UNTIL you are born again.

John 3:16 says this: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. What does this famous verse say about a person's natural moral ability to believe in Christ? The answer is nothing. What the verse says is whosever does A (believes) will receive B (Eternal life). It says nothing whatsoever about who will ever believe.

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Try using actual scripture. Maybe then I can understand what you're saying.

1Reformedman said:

you are spewing your presupposition that unconditional election must be arbitrary and that is not what reformed theology teaches AT ALL, BOB. Once again, brother, you show you don't have a good grasp on reformed theology. You have arbitrarily added the word arbitrary.

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Then if it is "Unconditional", and NOT "Arbitrary on God's part, what it is it according to the "Reformed Paradigm.

Al Touthentop said:

God says that the person who obeys him and keeps his commandments is saved.

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I'm willing to believe that a person--the Elect--who obeys him and keeps his commandments is saved. Did you think that the Elect would instead defy God?

Albion said:

First, we have to point out that all of it was explained earlier in the thread and now you are simply repeating the mistakes that we worked to clear away. So what is specifically wrong in your statement here?

1. Total depravity does not mean we are by nature complete savages. It means that we are totally estranged from God.

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ANd will remain so, unless Drawn to CHrist by God. no problem there.

2. Unconditional does not mean arbitrary. That has been explained again and again and again, so now you just repeat it as though none of that had been done.

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All that's been done is for the Reformed Paradigmatics to tell me the Election is actually "Conditional" according to stuff nobody understands, rendering their "Unconditional" inaccurate. NOTHING has been explained in a consistent fashion.

3. Being a Christian does not, in itself, assure anyone of persevering.

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Which then makes "I" inaccurate, since God's grace would then be "resistable", and "P" would be inaccurate.

Bob Carabbio said:

Complex - Adam was "created". Eve, having been "removed" from Adam, lessening him in the process is a rather "Special case" not repeated, but Cain, wasn't "Created, he was "Begotten" as a result of normal physical means - just like my granddaughter was. so NO - My granddaughter wasn't "Created" in the adamic sense.

However, She WAS "Known", even before she was conceived (Jer 1:5).

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God created all men. This distinction has no meaning (begotten vs created) except in the sick mind of Augustine who saw sex everywhere he looked. He invented concupiscence. It isn't found in the scripture.

Psalm 89:47
Remember how short my time is; For what futility have You created all the children of men?

Albion said:

I'm willing to believe that a person--the Elect--who obeys him and keeps his commandments is saved. Did you think that the Elect would instead defy God?

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You become elect by obeying him.

renniks said:

You are the one who said Reformed and Ariminan are the same on this issue. That's not even close to true.

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To be precise - I said the following which is an altogether correct statement.
His student said: ↑

According to Reformed theology - God decrees that what He chooses to allow to take place by the choices made by men out of their own wills will actually take place. But, according to Reformed theology, and the scriptures themselves, He does not author those choices nor force them on men or angels nor does He necessarily approve of them in and of themselves.
In this respect - so called Reformed theology is no different than so called Arminian theology.

renniks said:

Calvinists say God did not choose to do anything because of his foreknowledge. In other words, if someone is decreed to damnation, it's not because God knew he would reject salvation (in reformed theology) up against Arminians saying God's decree is not prior to his foreknowledge.

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No - you are incorrect. God's foreknowledge is part of His omniscience and therefore includes knowledge of what He will choose to do. Calvinists say that God did not "decree" anything because He saw it happening in the future. That is because nothing can happen that is not predestined by God to happen. All things were created by His Word (His decree as the theologians say) for His Word, and in His Word all things consist.

God's omniscience is eternal and is part of His inherent being. Any Reformed theologian would tell you the same thing. Therefore any decrees God makes are not prior to His foreknowledge - just as Arminians also say.

The "mistake" you make (to put it charitably) is when you tell us what people say in your "other words".

Please don't presume to do that. Let people speak for themselves.

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Bob

You are not handling the definitions of words carefully. As a result you are making no sense.

Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
Unconditional: not subject to any conditions

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All you've done is give the same definition twice, using different language.

Al Touthentop said:

God created all men. This distinction has no meaning (begotten vs created)

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SO the Biblical WORDS mean nothing, then.

Albion said:

That may be the balance of forces this time, but I assure you that it often is the reverse.

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Not that I've ever seen on this forum. I find wolfpack behavior distasteful.

Al Touthentop said:

You become elect by obeying him.

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If that's what you want to believe. However, the topic is about Reformed theology and it believes that God has chosen his Elect from before their births, as is indicated by a number of passages in Scripture that have already been referred to.

Concord1968 said:

Not that I've ever seen on this forum. I find wolfpack behavior distasteful.

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Oh yes. You may not have felt any need to count noses, but it definitely has happened.

What's more, the fact that it has should not be at all surprising, considering that there are more non-Calvinists than Calvinists and that the subject of predesination is probably one of the most controversial doctrinal issues around.

1Reformedman said:

Jesus said very clearly that all the father gives him will not be lost. So when one is saved that person's faith will cause him to endure to the end. You are not taking all of the bible into consideration when you are looking at John 15. Oh, and its unadvisable to use the concordance basic meanings of words as if they always mean only one thing because that is not how Greek thought, grammar and their language works.

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Woah woah woah That is not what Jesus said. He never said all the Father gives Him will not be lost. What He actually said was this.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39-40‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What is the Greek word translated to will? There’s 2 that are relevant to this passage of scripture, thélēma (G2307) which is the noun form which is used in John 6:39 & 40.

Description:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

Then there’s thélō (G2309) which is the verb form of the same word used in 1 Timothy 2:4.

Description:

1) to will, have in mind, intend a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose b) to desire, to wish c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing d) to take delight in, have pleasure

Both of these words do not always mean some that God has deemed to be so. They can also mean what God desires to be so. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 is a perfect example of this.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So John 6:39-40 can actually be translated

“This is the desire of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the desire of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39-40‬ ‭NASB‬

So we see that while God desires all men to repent and be saved that doesn’t mean that He has declared that it will be so. While God also desires all who believe in Christ that He would lose none that also will not be so because as I already stated in John 15:2 Jesus specifically says that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. He also said in John 15:6 anyone who does not abide (stay, remain, continue) in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Both verses 2 and 6 can ONLY pertain to believers because no one can be IN CHRIST who does not believe and no one can fail to abide, stay, remain, or continue to be in Christ who has never been in Christ to begin with.

Like you told me earlier understanding the Greek makes a big difference in understanding the message the authors of the NT were actually trying to convey.