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Interesting. But its not remotely the topic of this thread. For the sake of the fascinating on-topic discussions underway, can you start this up in a new thread please.A unrelated topic would not be a good example of making a point. Disbelief and belief go hand and hand, because both are a faith.
Fine, but not today.Interesting. But its not remotely the topic of this thread. For the sake of the fascinating on-topic discussions underway, can you start this up in a new thread please.
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I'm reminded of "A Clockwork Orange". If the sole reason for being good is for the sake of society, I wonder who here would be in favor of a Ludovico Technique to effectively disable free will?
A unrelated topic would not be a good example of making a point. Disbelief and belief go hand and hand, because both are a faith.
For the most part I think theism and atheism are relatively immaterial to moral discipline. They can certain color your moral structure. But good people are pretty much going to be good religion or not, and bad people are going to be bad people religious or not.
The thing that is different about bad people is that of the hope issue
Jesus went to the bad who had no interest in good and had no hope at all.
Jesus gave them hope with a nice future. Bad people (as they do each day in the nation of China, underground church) become good people by becoming believers in Jesus.
That is the purpose of the Gospel: to turn bad people in to good ones, only with the promise of a wonderful eternity.
You have missed the point of Christianity. Jesus brought it to the sick (especially sinners (yet not hypocrites)). Making bad people good normal in Christianity.
You may place no value in long term satisfaction... but so what? Most people do hold those values, for reasons that are intrinsic to human nature. You are stuck with going along, or living outside society, or rotting in jail.
Of course we are animals. But we are not "just animals" in that we have qualitatively different mental and spiritual capacites from all other animals, as best we can tell. But I dont see how this is relevant to our discussion.
Major misunderstanding. All along I've been discussing the derivation of morals, where they come from... yet you are getting hung up on the transmission of morals.
There is no way the average person alone can derive all the correct morals that are contained in the worlds various wisdom traditions. Its absurd to expect that. Moral originate in the long term application of wisdom to the realities of human life. But they are transmitted via education, cultural products, parental example, and religion.
So, if you dont get the transmission, you are quite vulnerable unless you are exceptional, and jail becomes a distinct possibility.
"Happy" is less subjective than you think. The particulars may vary considerably. But the basics do not. Again, they are: freedom, friendship, material security, health, knowledge, love, and spiritual satisfaction... and others I'm surely forgetting.
If you dont "get it" then we have other tools to make you play along until you do "get it": shame, guilt, honor, law, etc.
That issue is exactly the same whether we think morals come from God, or from human wisdom. The application of force in favor of moral truth is a human enterprise. Someone will always shove their idea morality down your throat.We're finally starting to see eye to eye.Your response to my position is "so what?", and I've been using a bunch of words to try and say "so what?" to your position. As I said to the OP, don't shove your morals down my throat.
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Of course. If you are very wise, you might hit upon some moral truths. If not, you will probably make some common errors. If you act on those errors, you will probably suffer, either in your own heart, or physically, or socially. The examples set by these moral failures help keep the rest of us on track.Right, derivation is key. You're telling me how morals come from men. The trouble is, I'm also a man, so there's nothing stopping me from deriving my own morals from my own experience. Maybe I think the majority is wrong, or maybe the majority is right but has a different goal than I do. There's nothing stopping me from defining evil as good. And people do do that.
That issue is exactly the same whether we think morals come from God, or from human wisdom.
Again, the application of force in favor of moral truth is a human enterprise.The Creator and the created are not equally authoritative.
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