If tht is true, then the only way Christ could pay for your sins is to suffer eternal punishment, not simply death, there is no way around it.
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Yes, sin...which ultimately translates to coveting the throne of God, going after it willfully and seeking to dethrone and destroy the creator of the universe. If the destruction of the source of all life and all things good and the replacement of Him with something which cannot even compare (a created being) is not worthy of eternal punishment, then what is? It is an eternal crime, with eternal consequences...therefore warranting an eternal sentence.
Remember that God poured out His wrath that we deserved onto Jesus, because who else but God incarnate could take that kind of punishment and remain not just holy, but faithful. Only Jesus could take that wrath and bury it in the tomb. If you reject that sacrifice, then you're rejecting the payment made on your behalf. You must then pay that price yourself. Do you think that a soul who already rejects God would suddenly find love for Him in the bowels of hell? No, they'd continue to blaspheme His name, and blame him (much like atheists do now) for putting them there. Their punishment goes on, because their hatred goes on.
May God Richly Bless you!
Again, I'm not sure of your point, are you saying aion means one thing when used secularly and has another meaning when used in scripture?
That would be a gross error, so I hope not.
I do admit aion is used in the greek many to express both for an age and sometimes for everlasting, so we must understand it's use regarding subject matter to know the difference.
As I stated, lexicons evolved regarding aion.
Until we understand God is working in the ages, not two worlds, life and afterlife, we will follow improper doctrines, such as eternal torture.
In the English Bibles, aion is most often translated as "forever" or "world", resulting in doctrines that don't agree with the original intent of the word.
so we agree, aion CAN mean eternal. That was the point, and it has been used thus in secular and religious text books. But I see no evolution of the definition as it has always been thus. This is fanciful thinking to support your position. But lacks true evidence.
You are not. You are implying literal where it is not intended.I am just applying a literal method of interpretation as you have advocated throughout this thread.
I think it clearly points to the reason that literalism should not be our default position, but you seem more interested in denying the plain language of the text than in using it to question your chosen approach to Bible interpretation.
Then fear of what??? Was the Genesis Flood punishment? Burning Sodom alive? What else would you call it?I have no idea who "they" refers to, but let me rephrase. There is absolutely nothing in the verses that you cited that even hints that we should believe out of fear of punishment. That idea is starkly rebuked by 1 John 4 (which I can't help but notice that you have been avoiding like the plague).
God's love only applies to those who please Him.If you can't argue your position with logic, reason, Scripture, or exegesis, the generic "unbiblical" always works nicely.
But, hey, if you want to live your life in fear of going to Hell, by all means go for it. I am not going to join you, because I have the assurance of God's perfect love, which casts out all fear. I pray that some day you will abandon your view of a monstrous God who is looking for opportunities to torture his enemies and someday embrace the God of love who casts out all fear and desperately yearns for the salvation of humankind and whose heart breaks for every person who chooses death over life.
Remember that God poured out His wrath that we deserved onto Jesus, because who else but God incarnate could take that kind of punishment and remain not just holy, but faithful. Only Jesus could take that wrath and bury it in the tomb. If you reject that sacrifice, then you're rejecting the payment made on your behalf. You must then pay that price yourself. Do you think that a soul who already rejects God would suddenly find love for Him in the bowels of hell? No, they'd continue to blaspheme His name, and blame him (much like atheists do now) for putting them there. Their punishment goes on, because their hatred goes on.
May God Richly Bless you!
You are not. You are implying literal where it is not intended.
Then fear of what??? Was the Genesis Flood punishment? Burning Sodom alive? What else would you call it?
God's love only applies to those who please Him.
But USUALLY the best.Well, I am glad we agree that the literal interpretation is not always best.
Guess you missed this:We should believe and obey out of love, not fear. As another poster pointed out, there is an element of fear that comes with love -- not fear of what the other (in this case God) will do to us if we mess up, but the very real fear of disappointing Him. But, this kind of fear, if you call it that, is a byproduct, not the cause of obedience and love.
Sorry, I've read the Bible, including Romans.I am sorry to hear that you have such a distorted view of God. I encourage you to take some time to study the writings of John in Scripture. He seems to have shared your view of God, until He was changed by three years of talking face to face with Him.
But USUALLY the best.
Guess you missed this:
Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Sorry, I've read the Bible, including Romans.
Romans 9:14-16 (NASB)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
No Scripture, no surprise. Jesus is the God of the OT. The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. Jesus is the God of the OT. Fear Him!I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.
No Scripture, no surprise. Jesus is the God of the OT. The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom.
You have turned to personal attack because you cannot provide Scriptural proof of YOUR belief.I have provided plenty of Scripture, but I have become convinced that this is so deeply emotional for you that you are not willing to have a purely intellectual debate. It would be wrong of me to try to continue down that road under the circumstances. You seem to have a hurt that is too profound for you to see the depth of God's love at this point.
Eph 3:18
You have turned to personal attack because you cannot provide Scriptural proof of YOUR belief.
You should start at the beginning:
Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
I have provided plenty of Scripture, but I have become convinced that this is so deeply emotional for you that you are not willing to have a purely intellectual debate. It would be wrong of me to try to continue down that road under the circumstances. You seem to have a hurt that is too profound for you to see the depth of God's love at this point.
Eph 3:18
I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.
I am sorry for whatever has happened in your life that has caused you to gravitate to such a low opinion of God. Arguing with you seems rather pointless, because you seem emotionally drawn to a view of God who is quite different than the one that John the Evangelist encountered in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes, you can point to proof texts that, when removed from context, support your view of a violent and monstrous God. But, that view of God does not stand up to the NT as a whole. But, so long as you cannot conceive of God as nothing more than an omnipotent and cruel master to be feared and dreaded, you will gravitate to those prooftexts and refuse to see the God of Scripture who calls you to an intimately loving relationship with Him. I am saddened by your posts, and I will pray for you.
gradyll said:actually that is an attack, dollars bill is right. Quit with the pitty party and strawmaning, and focus on the arguments at hand.
My intent was compassion not patronizing or attacking. I'm sorry that you and db have seen it differently.
We have argued long enough and not gotten anywhere. But, db has expressed some feelings that I find saddening.
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