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The false prophet would be included in "unredeemed".
Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Actually it is a false prophet. A human.That, my brother, is a red herring. The false prophet may be unredeemed, but not all unredeemed people are the false prophet.
The reasons don't matter. It's eternal punishment that matters. I.E. FOREVER.So the criteria is worshiping the beast. Simple exegesis would tell us that this is very different from the "eternal punishment" that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 25, for which the criteria is not caring for the poor. It would appear that the biblical doctrine of hell is more complicated than you are making it out to be.
Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Why ignore our English Bibles that clearly teach eternal punishment?the original greek scriptures.
So we should ignore the warnings in the Bible???
Hebrews 10:31 (NASB)
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Why ignore our English Bibles that clearly teach eternal punishment?
Are you SERIOUS!!!!!!Another red herring. Saying one thing and then citing a Scripture that in no way supports what you are saying does not a solid argument make. The verse you cite provides nothing about fear of punishment.
Guess you missed this COMMAND.But, here is one that does: "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18.
There are many self professed Greek experts who disagree with God. Our English Bibles agree with eternal punishment.Perhaps because the Bible wasn't written in English. All we have are translations, which provide approximations of the meaning of the original text, but the precise meanings are gleaned only in the original language. Since most of us are not fluent in biblical Greek and Hebrew, we live with what we have, which is MUCH better than nothing at all (and some translations are certainly better than others).
Actually it is a false prophet. A human.
The reasons don't matter. It's eternal punishment that matters. I.E. FOREVER.
You just agreed that God does indeed torment forever in fire. I don't understand your point beyond that.I understood you the first time. But, two problems: (1) that is a presumption that is not gleaned from the text, a valid presumption, but a presumption nonetheless -- not something on which a wise person is going to base an idea as important as this one, (2) The false prophet, assuming he is human, is certainly not all unredeemed people, and since we are not talking about the fate of one or two specific people, but rather the entire "unsaved" human race, the verse is irrelevant.
Eternal punishment cannot exist on those who do not exist.As you well know, I do believe in eternal punishment. Being dead and never coming back to life is an eternal punishment. This is what the Bible says happens to sinners who are not redeemed.
Extinction is not punishment. That would be reward for the wicked.Sure, a couple of verses in Revelation mention a different fate for the false prophet, the beast, the devil, and those who worship the beast. But, for the purposes of this discussion (what is the fate of unredeemed sinners, this is largely irrelevant). It only goes to to show that the issue is more complicated than either of us are acknowledging -- that there is a fate worse than death for the beast and those who worship him. Since the Revelation is largely apocalyptic, it would require a large dose of speculation to figure out who that refers to. So, I err on the side of the more simple question: what does the Bible say about the unredeemed sinner? And, the answer is that he will die.
Are you SERIOUS!!!!!!
Hebrews 10:31 (NASB)
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Guess you missed this COMMAND.
1 Peter 2:17 (NASB)
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
You just agreed that God does indeed torment forever in fire. I don't understand your point beyond that.
Eternal punishment cannot exist on those who do not exist.
Extinction is not punishment. That would be reward for the wicked.
Since the Bible teaches the fear of God I'll stick with it. I don't have to interpret anything.Either John was wrong or your interpretation of the "fear of God". Given those choices, I'll put my dollarsbills on John being right.
God means what He says, FEAR GOD. No "idiom".This especially considering that the "fear of God" is an idiom with a specific meaning that is not what you seem to thing it is:
Scripture please."fear is an awe and reverence of the divine Being, joined with love to him, trust in him, and a desire to serve and worship him in a right manner; no sooner is a man converted, but presently there is in him a fear of offending God, from a principle of love to him; for not a slavish but a filial fear is here intended;"
Since the Bible teaches the fear of God I'll stick with it. I don't have to interpret anything.
God means what He says, FEAR GOD. No "idiom".
Scripture please.
He also taught the unquenchable fire and the firey hell.So, I will take it that you have chopped off hand as Jesus instructed in Matthew 5?!?!? After all, it's what Jesus CLEARLY taught!
I'll go with literal unless there is VERY good reason not to.You might consider taking a hermeneutics course. First, you need to know that any reading of Scripture requires interpretation; choosing to read a text in its most literal sense is an act of interpretation, one which is often, but not always appropriate. Second, any competent student of hermeneutics would know that one of the biggest possible sources of misunderstanding comes when we translate idiomatic phrases from another language. If someone were to tell you that it is "raining cats and dogs", I doubt you would look out the window, realize that the only thing falling from the sky is water, and retort, "you liar! It is only raining water!". You need to also realize that English is not the only language that uses such expressions, and the ancient Hebrew and Greek are among those languages that do.
And, it is important to realize here that a strictly literal interpretation of "the fear of the Lord" results in an internal contradiction within Scripture. So, either there must be some deviation from literal interpretation or the Bible contradicts itself. I believe the former; I hope that you are not claiming the latter.
I will accept our English Bibles that are quite consistent compared to the self professed Greek experts.It comes from a commetary, which is cited in the link provided. You seem to want to view English translations as superior to claims about the meaning of the original Greek, presumably because you trust the translators over some guy on the internet. I cited Gill's commentary, so that the meaning of the phrase (very rarely does Scripture explicitly define its use of words) is not left to merely mine or your opinion. The link provided is the cite, but in case you missed it: Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
He also taught the unquenchable fire and the firey hell.
I'll go with literal unless there is VERY good reason not to.
I will accept our English Bibles that are quite consistent compared to the self professed Greek experts.
You are distorting what Jesus taught. He did not teach any such thing.I haven't denied that. But, you seem to be denying that he taught that you should cut off your hands if they ever cause you to sin.
No contradiction whatsoever. Jesus taught eternal punishment.If you don't consider an irreconcilable contradiction with Scripture a good reason to second guess your interpretation of that passage, I don't know what will. I don't know how to convince someone who will ignore solid exegesis in favor of a doctrine that makes him feel good in believing that his enemies will be tormented forever.
EXTREME contradiction!As do I. But, where a given expression is commonly understood to be an idiomatic phrase and where reading it any differently results in irreconcilable contradictions within Scripture, I am am going to interpret it according to well accepted exegetical standards, not my own opinion of what I think it means (however obvious it might seem to me).
Why ignore our English Bibles that clearly teach eternal punishment?
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