Why an eternal hell?

dollarsbill said:

Can you think of a better reason to repent than burning forever? Have you ever been burned?

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Yes! God is our gracious and amazing Father. He rains on the just and the unjust. He loves His enemies. Which is why Jesus told us to "be perfect as your Father is perfect".

I have a wonderful father on earth, who has been immensely patient with me in all things (I'm a stubborn girl ). I have known real love from the day I was born. I am truly rich beyond belief.

But even so, I did not consider my Father in heaven to be quite as good as my father on earth. I thought of Him as cold and distant and likely to hand me a stone when I asked for a piece of bread. I thumped others on the head with the 'proper' doctrines, while I myself enjoyed acceptance and comfort.

If anyone will be in hell forever, it will be someone just like me. Someone who knows firsthand what love and forgiveness is, but refuses to show it to others in the name of Jesus Christ. How could such a willingly stingy creature be allowed to stand in the presence of our generous God?

But now I see Him. I see this God who would give His own son for me, and not just for me, or for people like me, but even for those people that I hated. I've stepped off the cliff of God's grace, and I ain't lookin' back.

It is God's kindness that led me to repentance, and I wanna be just like my Father.

God bless

Armistead14 said:

In much like Pascal's wager

The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

1. "God is, or He is not"
2. A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3. According to reason, you can defend either of the propositions.
4. You must wager. (It's not optional.)
5. Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

I grew up in very fundy churches. Most every service ended in a speech of being tortured in hell. It starts with the common, "every head bowed, every eye closed" Then raise your hand if your lost...Then the pleading about not going to hell, how bad hell is, etc...Basically God loves you more than anyone, but reject him, he will eternally torture you. I've seen 1000's over the years run to alters to get their "free get out of hell card", only doing so out of fear, no real understanding of God or Christ, they simply don't want to suffer for eternity. You often see little change or they fall back into the world.

Imagine meeting someone you loved, but they hadn't accepted you. You beg them for love, but they reject. Finally, you pour gas all over them, stand back and light a match and tell them to declare love or they're going to burn. They will declare love out of fear, but inwardly hate you, it's a relationship based on total fear, then revolves around total guilt. Many become miserable, judgmental and often get trapped into legalistic codes.
Sadly many of these become so miserable, they seem to enjoy the thought of others being tortured, they feel they've given up so much to follow God, that hell for others is payback. This might be the reason so few actually go out and witness, I can think of no other reason.

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It may be for some, but obviously unconsciously.

I think much of the reason for being "ashamed of the gospel," as you'll be accused if you don't feel comfortable sharing the gospel with everybody all the time, is that, well... you ARE ashamed of the gospel, because the gospel is "turn to God because if you don't he'll torment you forever" (and the obvious consequence: that the majority of people ever to exist will share that fate).

dollarsbill said:

It's perfectly clear. Spiritual gymnastics do not change what God said.

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It's pretty fundamental to read every verse in context.

dollarsbill said:

We have clearly established that it is forever.

Revelation 20:10-11 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again, why would God drown all but 8, including children?

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I answered that some posts ago, I guess you missed it: http://www.christianforums.com/t7671002-56/#post61170251

You may have established that the burning is forever, but Jesus compared it to branches in a fire (and Gehenna), in which nothing keeps burning without end. Jesus spoke of Gehenna and Hades, not the lake of fire.

dollarsbill said:

Please tell us who can tell God that He cannot burn sinners forever.

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Nobody. And nobody can say that God can burn anyone forever and yet somehow be righteous, not to mention good.

dollarsbill said:

So you're saying that drowning all but 8 is good, but burning humans forever is evil?

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I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's possible that it was a necessary evil somehow, like when God showed Paul the tribulation he would have to go through for the greater good of preaching the gospel, or the necessary evil of Judas betraying Jesus (an aside: the "it would have been better for him if he had never been born" verse likely means that it would be better for Jesus if Judas had never been born).

Eternal torture, on the other hand, can not have some greater ultimately good purpose. It's just nonstop evil.

dollarsbill said:

Can you think of a better reason to repent than burning forever? Have you ever been burned?

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Yes I have, and it in no way made me appreciate or be thankful to the one that burned me, much less love him. You can't and won't really love a God if you're only seeking him because he'll torture you otherwise. And he wouldn't be loving you either if that's what he wanted to do.

dollarsbill said:

Same thing.

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"God is love" is the same reason as "seek him or be tormented eternally"?
I hope I'm getting you wrong here.

Believe the Impossible said:

God didn't give the sentence in order to just be mean, but promised eternal life and therefore any justice given to evil 'immortal' people would entail, by logic, an eternal punishment. This is not His fault; but then everyone always wants someone to blame for their wish to live wickedly without consequence.

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Why is that logic? God gives eternal life to some, and eternal (apparently, there are others here more knowledgable about the term aion and so forth) death to others. An eternal punishment doesn't mean you'll be alive eternally.

And how could it not be God's "fault?" I mean, he made the rules, didn't he? Can a man, an angel, or the devil, or some higher law that not even God is Lord of, force Him to inflict infinite suffering on anyone?

dollarsbill said:

It's perfectly clear. Spiritual gymnastics do not change what God said.

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Once again, let's dissect this verse and find out what it is saying:

You alluded to this portion of (not surprisingly omitting the first half of the verse):

"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

Now, one of the first rules that an aspiring exegete should consider is that when a sentence begins with a pronoun, it is worth looking to the previous sentence(s) to see what that pronoun refers to. And, we need not even leave that verse to see that the pronoun "they" refers to "the devil", "the beast", and "the false prophet". Since, our discussion has not been centered around the fate of these entities, but rather the fate of the unredeemed, we see that this verse does not directly address the topic.

Having determined that the subject of the sentence refers to something else entirely, there is no need to consider the rest of the sentence, as it does not apply. Now, if you can find me a verse that says that the unredeemed will face the same fate as the devil, the beats, and the false prophet, then we can further exegete this verse. But, as it stands, you seem to be basing your entire position on a verse that when read in its entirety clearly does not apply.

holo said:

It may be for some, but obviously unconsciously.

I think much of the reason for being "ashamed of the gospel," as you'll be accused if you don't feel comfortable sharing the gospel with everybody all the time, is that, well... you ARE ashamed of the gospel, because the gospel is "turn to God because if you don't he'll torment you forever" (and the obvious consequence: that the majority of people ever to exist will share that fate).

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This is so very true. There is tension between 'sharing the good news' and knowing that the good news isn't actually that good. It's like being a used car salesman who desperately wants to be honest, but knows that he has to shine up this lemon in order to put food on the table for his kids.

I've been there and it's a horrible place to be. God have mercy.

Believe the Impossible said:

Where in the Bible is the word 'torture' used or is this a man-made definition of eternal punishment?

Seriously, if men on this earth had the power to 'torture' someone forever, down in their dark, labirynths of horror, you don't think they would if they wouldn't get caught?

Wouldn't Hitler still be burning if people could decide. For goodness sakes, Christ was given to death over a murderer and you believe the people of this earth wouldn't take full advantage if they were capable? Men are evil and put them together with torches and pitchforks and we know what they are capable of. Do we forget so quickly what we are made of? And even if we don't say it out loud, how many of us think and feel it in our hearts?

God didn't give the sentence in order to just be mean, but promised eternal life and therefore any justice given to evil 'immortal' people would entail, by logic, an eternal punishment. This is not His fault; but then everyone always wants someone to blame for their wish to live wickedly without consequence.

To think that people on this earth condemn people to death with the death penalty are somehow serving justice and yet God is just some 'madman' who loves to see people suffer.

Oh, how wrathful are we when we see a child molester on the stand; what do we wish to do to them? Honestly? How much more would we wish to see them 'burn' forever? We demand justice here on earth and cry out when it isn't done, but somehow our Creator isn't allowed this same allowance?

Le'ts not place mankind's evil thoughts aside here, let's lay it out on the table. We've all had horrible thoughts and if we wouldn't be punished we all would have accomplished some pretty horrible things in our lives...all of us.

When God stated that none of us was good, He wasn't lying, but we love to lie to ourselves in order to justify our actions and thoughts.

Each one of us knows the depths of our own evil, although we'll never admit it...we are not gods, we are going to die. Decide how you wish to spend eternity.

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Your premise is flawed. You are comparing corrupted sinful man with a sinless loving God. We live on a failed earth with failed humanity. Yes, we are evil and our sense of justice is often vengeful payback, to the point of torturing and killing other humans. Indeed, I agree, great evil can run through our minds.

But is God no different, Is a sinless loving God unable arise beyond the actions of evil humanity? Will God act like evil humanity for all eternity, the God that said love and forgive your enemies? Is God unable to forgive his enemies? The bigger question that I think is being posed, is God's justice the same as man's justice, even though man can only punish until death?
What did Christ mean when he said "Father FORGIVE them, they know not what they do?

We are failed humans in many aspect, our beings are shaped by thousands of human factors beyond ourselves. None of us are self made men, we are all products in varying degrees of society, yet we deserve infinite punishment for our finite sin?

Your statement that God would naturally punish evil man eternally, but the majority of men going to hell aren't evil, most are loving decent humans that simply followed the beliefs of their culture. Since Christ, the majority of man died without hearing the gospel. Most are very sincere, but sincerity seemingly has no place in God's jugdments.

If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death which is exactly what Jesus did--died. So how can you say people will be eternally tortured in Hell? Is Jesus presently being eternally tortured in place of those who accepted Him as Lord?" If Jesus died in our place to save us from this fate, wouldn't Jesus have to be eternally punished if in fact He took our punishment upon Himself? But He's NOT being eternally punished. He DIED which is what the penalty of the wages of sin is, DEATH, NOT a life of unending torture.

We may want to bring God down to our level, but I think the bible clearly teaches God will bring us up to his level.

Armistead14 said:

The verse is better read they will be tormented for ages and ages "aion"
Day and night denote time, you really think the sun rises and sets in hell, it's is a metaphor denoting time, not eternity.

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Better according to whom?

dies-l said:

If that is a person's primary motive, then that person is not truly following Christ.

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Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

dies-l said:

Therein lies another source of our disagreement. I would say that loving and trusting God is what is important. Fear of punishment might be a temporary tool to help a person see the need for this, but it is never by itself going to lead to a lasting and meaningful devotion to Christ. And, I would be seriously concerned for anyone that saw avoiding punishment as the most important aspect of their Christian walk.

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So we should ignore the warnings in the Bible???

Hebrews 10:31 (NASB)
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

holo said:

It's pretty fundamental to read every verse in context.

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The wrath of God is thoroughly taught throughout the Bible. Denying this can be perilous forever.

2 Kings 17:25 (NASB)
25 At the beginning of their living there, they did not fear the LORD; therefore the LORD sent lions among them which killed some of them.

holo said:

Nobody. And nobody can say that God can burn anyone forever and yet somehow be righteous, not to mention good.

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I can and will. He was righteous in drowning all but 8, in burning Sodom alive and will still be righteous in burning forever those who rebel against Him.

holo said:

Eternal torture, on the other hand, can not have some greater ultimately good purpose. It's just nonstop evil.

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And that's your erroneous opinion. God will be perfectly just and righteous burning humans forever. You can call Him evil if you like, but remember we will all have to stand before Him on Judgment Day.

holo said:

Yes I have, and it in no way made me appreciate or be thankful to the one that burned me, much less love him. You can't and won't really love a God if you're only seeking him because he'll torture you otherwise. And he wouldn't be loving you either if that's what he wanted to do.

"God is love" is the same reason as "seek him or be tormented eternally"?
I hope I'm getting you wrong here.

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You don't fear God?

1 Peter 2:17 (NASB)
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

holo said:

An eternal punishment doesn't mean you'll be alive eternally.

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How can someone who doesn't exist be punished forever? He cannot.

dies-l said:

Once again, let's dissect this verse and find out what it is saying:

You alluded to this portion of (not surprisingly omitting the first half of the verse):

"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10

Now, one of the first rules that an aspiring exegete should consider is that when a sentence begins with a pronoun, it is worth looking to the previous sentence(s) to see what that pronoun refers to. And, we need not even leave that verse to see that the pronoun "they" refers to "the devil", "the beast", and "the false prophet". Since, our discussion has not been centered around the fate of these entities, but rather the fate of the unredeemed, we see that this verse does not directly address the topic.

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The false prophet would be included in "unredeemed".

Having determined that the subject of the sentence refers to something else entirely, there is no need to consider the rest of the sentence, as it does not apply. Now, if you can find me a verse that says that the unredeemed will face the same fate as the devil, the beats, and the false prophet, then we can further exegete this verse. But, as it stands, you seem to be basing your entire position on a verse that when read in its entirety clearly does not apply.

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Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."