Why an eternal hell?

dollarsbill said:

Are you preaching annihilation?

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I'm not preaching anything. I've been looking for the truth about the whole hell doctrine that I grew up with. It's only recently I've been made aware of stuff like Jesus didn't use the word hell etc etc. I'm trying to keep an open mind about it. I believe that God will judge righteously, first of all. He gives mercy beyond what people deserve, but I don't think he gives punishment beyond what anybody deserve. There are several verses that seem to say that everybody will eventually be saved, and indeed we could expect that from a God who is both loving and almighty - you know, the whole His Will Be Done thing. I've not landed on any position regarding that though.

holo said:

True. But that's ONE verse that says they will be tormented forever. The bible often seems to contradict itself, but we see how one verse harmonizes or explains or modifies another, and how every verse must be seen in the context of the entire scriptures.

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Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

If the fate of the majority of people who ever lived is eternal torment one would suppose that bible would be very clear on that from the very beginning. As far as I know there's no mention of hell at all in the OT.

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God made it quite clear in the OT how He feels about wickedness, I.E. the Flood, burning Sodom alive.

I can't see any possible way that an almighty and just God can torture anyone forever. He may give people what they deserve. Nobody deserves eternal torture. If God is going to do that it simply can't be true that He will judge righteously.

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Do you consider it righteous for God to drown all but 8 including babies, cripples, elderly, etc? How about burning Sodom alive?

As someone mentioned somewhere here, the word(s) translated into "ever" and "eternal" don't necessarily mean that in the original language and context - but I'm not educated enough to determine how they should be translated.

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'Eternal' is used several times so that there is no mistaking what God means. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

holo said:

I'm not preaching anything. I've been looking for the truth about the whole hell doctrine that I grew up with. It's only recently I've been made aware of stuff like Jesus didn't use the word hell etc etc. I'm trying to keep an open mind about it. I believe that God will judge righteously, first of all. He gives mercy beyond what people deserve, but I don't think he gives punishment beyond what anybody deserve. There are several verses that seem to say that everybody will eventually be saved, and indeed we could expect that from a God who is both loving and almighty - you know, the whole His Will Be Done thing. I've not landed on any position regarding that though.

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Hell is clearly used in the NT. Many English Bibles confirm this. Regardless, the eternal fire is in every English Bible I know of.

dollarsbill said:

Belief of Hell is not a requirement for residency.

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Is non-belief in hell a requirement for residency?

Timothew said:

Is non-belief in hell a requirement for residency?

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holo said:

1 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

I don't see how those verses say anyone will be tormented forever. Some will go to eternal punishment, the others will go to eternal LIFE. It does NOT say that the unsaved will go to eternal life in hell. Your soul isn't eternal by default. When Adam and Eve sinned, God kept them from eating of the Tree Of Life so that they would NOT get eternal life - I think that means God didn't want them to live eternally in their sinful state, but I may be wrong.

Do you think anybody deserves to be tortured forever?

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it says eternal fire in verse 41, like I said, read it again.

gradyll said:

it says eternal fire in verse 41, like I said, read it again.

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And then it says "prepared for the devil and his angels".

dies-l said:

And then it says "prepared for the devil and his angels".

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Guess you missed this part:

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

dies-l said:

And then it says "prepared for the devil and his angels".

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so, we go to the same place they do....and there is the proof.

gradyll said:

so, we go to the same place they do....and there is the proof.

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No, that explains why it is an eternal fire, even though people don't live there eternally. It also explains the Revelation proof text. Immortal beings suffer there eternally. Mortals are destroyed by it.

dollarsbill said:

Guess you missed this part:

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

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No I didnt miss that part. I just chose to read the whole sentence rather than the only the first part. Nothing in it suggests eternal torment. In fact, it undermines your position.

dies-l said:

No I didnt miss that part. I just chose to read the whole sentence rather than the only the first part. Nothing in it suggests eternal torment. In fact, it undermines your position.

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Guess you missed the word ETERNAL.

dollarsbill said:

Guess you missed the word ETERNAL.

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Nope. I find it odd that you are basing your argument on your assumption that I don't know how to read. The problem is that you are engaging in eisegesis (injecting your own assumptions and beliefs into the text) and then wondering why I don't see them there. The text says that the fire is eternal; it doesn't say that individual people stay there eternally.

holo said:

True. But that's ONE verse that says they will be tormented forever. The bible often seems to contradict itself, but we see how one verse harmonizes or explains or modifies another, and how every verse must be seen in the context of the entire scriptures. If the fate of the majority of people who ever lived is eternal torment one would suppose that bible would be very clear on that from the very beginning. As far as I know there's no mention of hell at all in the OT.

I can't see any possible way that an almighty and just God can torture anyone forever. He may give people what they deserve. Nobody deserves eternal torture. If God is going to do that it simply can't be true that He will judge righteously.

As someone mentioned somewhere here, the word(s) translated into "ever" and "eternal" don't necessarily mean that in the original language and context - but I'm not educated enough to determine how they should be translated.

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Just because you can't "see" it doesn't make it not true. You can't "see" gravity, but it holds you to the ground. You can't "see" air, but a tornado can rip trees out of the ground. Similarly, what you can't see spiritually still affects you.

Our Almighty and Just God is an Infinite God. And our sin is against this Infinite God. So, our penalty is INFINITE! If we accept Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, His Infinite sacrifice (as He is God) covers the infinite penalty. If we reject that sacrifice, then we have to pay it. And, since we are not infinite, we have to pay that penalty for an infinite amount of time (i.e. eternally).

You say nobody deserves eternal torture. Well, nobody has to endure it. God has offered us eternal glory. How is it nobody ever complains that none of us deserves that?

dollarsbill said:

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

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I've been reading a little around in Rev. I won't claim to know how exactly it is to be interpreted, though obviously a lot of it is symbolical. Anyhow, in Rev 14 it speaks of people who bowed down to the beast and took his mark. Would that be you and me unless we're saved? Just asking here. In chapter 20 it says whoever is not in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, the "second death" - I'm not sure what "second death" really means, elsewhere the bible speaks of death being no more. But anyway, it says the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be thrown in there and suffer for ever and ever. It seems reasonable that that would apply to humans also, but in the greater context of the scriptures it just doesn't. Even Rev 20:13 says that each person was judged according to what they had done. So if all the verses that say God will judge righteously are true, he obviously can't torture anyone forever. How could that possibly, in any sense of the word, be just? It's an incredibly evil thing to do. It's something we would expect SATAN to do if he got the chance.

dollarsbill said:

God made it quite clear in the OT how He feels about wickedness, I.E. the Flood, burning Sodom alive.

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Yes, and nowhere does it say he will or must torture anybody indefinitely.

dollarsbill said:

Do you consider it righteous for God to drown all but 8 including babies, cripples, elderly, etc? How about burning Sodom alive?

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No, not if he actually punished innocent people for what somebody else did. I'm not sure how to understand those passages, because it's certainly not something Jesus would do. I've seen a lot of attempts to reconcile God's seemingly evil actions in the OT with the gospel, but I'm not convinced by any of them. But one 'solution' to it would be that God ultimately extends to each person what they deserve.

Let's take the holocaust. Christians will say Hitler was evil, but at the same time believing that God would first let men and women be tortured and gassed to death, and children thrown alive into the ovens, then judge Hitler for doing that. Then God himself will torture all of those people forever. That the vast majority of six million jews are being tormented as we speak - by God. Because God is just. Because it's what they deserve.

dollarsbill said:

'Eternal' is used several times so that there is no mistaking what God means. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending.

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But again, eternal punishment doesn't mean the person is eternal. The death penalty is eternal, it can't "end". And like I said, the word "eternal" popping up a lot doesn't mean it's correctly translated. And yes, it says that the righteous will have eternal life. The unrighteous will not. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death.

dollarsbill said:

Hell is clearly used in the NT. Many English Bibles confirm this. Regardless, the eternal fire is in every English Bible I know of.

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English bibles have translated words like Hades and Gehenna into "hell." That doesn't mean they meant our traditional understanding of the word today.

gradyll said:

it says eternal fire in verse 41, like I said, read it again.

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I'll read it again if you read my reply again

I'm not claming it doesn't say eternal fire, I'm claiming it doesn't say eternal life in the fire.

tankerG said:

Just because you can't "see" it doesn't make it not true. You can't "see" gravity, but it holds you to the ground. You can't "see" air, but a tornado can rip trees out of the ground. Similarly, what you can't see spiritually still affects you.

Our Almighty and Just God is an Infinite God. And our sin is against this Infinite God. So, our penalty is INFINITE! If we accept Jesus' sacrifice for our sins, His Infinite sacrifice (as He is God) covers the infinite penalty. If we reject that sacrifice, then we have to pay it. And, since we are not infinite, we have to pay that penalty for an infinite amount of time (i.e. eternally).

You say nobody deserves eternal torture. Well, nobody has to endure it. God has offered us eternal glory. How is it nobody ever complains that none of us deserves that?

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Nobody complains about it since it's nothing to complain about.
Well, actually, it IS something to complain about in that people don't get the same fair chance to take a stand to the gospel. Not according to most modern western christianity anyway.

But what you say about inifine penalty and such just doesn't make sense. It's not like there's some law of nature that forces God to punish people infinitely more than they deserve. It also implies that we are eternal beings to begin with, which I don't think the bible teaches - but correct me if I'm wrong about that.

You're right about me not understanding something doesn't make it untrue. But in this case it would mean that we have absolutely no idea whatsoever what righteousness is. Because if righteousness can mean torturing a kid forever because he stole a bubble gum, then we have no grounds for saying murder, or any other bad thing, is unrighteous.

dies-l said:

No, that explains why it is an eternal fire, even though people don't live there eternally. It also explains the Revelation proof text. Immortal beings suffer there eternally. Mortals are destroyed by it.

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Nope. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:10-11)

"Tormented" is the same word as in Rev. 9:5, as with the torment of a scorpion sting. Not lethal, but painful, agonizing, and miserable. Why would such a word be used if the meaning was "destroyed"?
The smoke of their torment rises forever. If they were "burned up" by the eternal fire, then why does the smoke of that burning rise forever? Finite beings - even big ones - would eventually be consumed, right? The only way that the smoke of their torment rises (present tense in the Greek, meaning repeatedly and continually) forever is if they are not burned up by the torment. And it goes on forever.

A ghastly picture, for sure. But we can't deny its truth simply because we find it abhorrent. That's why everyone needs to accept Jesus! We don't have to go to this awful place. We don't have to worry about the conditions in there. By accepting Christ we are spared the horrors of hell, and given the glories of heaven.

tankerG said:

Nope. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:10-11)

"Tormented" is the same word as in Rev. 9:5, as with the torment of a scorpion sting. Not lethal, but painful, agonizing, and miserable. Why would such a word be used if the meaning was "destroyed"?
The smoke of their torment rises forever. If they were "burned up" by the eternal fire, then why does the smoke of that burning rise forever? Finite beings - even big ones - would eventually be consumed, right? The only way that the smoke of their torment rises (present tense in the Greek, meaning repeatedly and continually) forever is if they are not burned up by the torment. And it goes on forever.

A ghastly picture, for sure. But we can't deny its truth simply because we find it abhorrent. That's why everyone needs to accept Jesus! We don't have to go to this awful place. We don't have to worry about the conditions in there. By accepting Christ we are spared the horrors of hell, and given the glories of heaven.

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Who is the "they"?