createdtoworship
In the grip of grace
- Mar 13, 2004
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I could read them a million times and they still won't say what you claim they do.
You seem to assume that no one who disagrees with you on what the text implies has prayed about them.
Exactly! To say Adam didn't die that day is saying God was wrong.I'm not sure why you feel the need to correct the word of God, because it doesnt say...
"... For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely begin to die."
They did die that day, they became spiritually dead. Just as those in hell continue in their spiritually dead state. The distinction between being physically and spiritually dead is important here.
Your comments are quite on topic IMO.why is it off topic? I said they burn forever in Hell?
The fires by definition do not go out.
Therefore the duration of Hell is eternal. That is the point I was making.
What purpose does it truly serve?
Quote; Those who are outside Christ do not receive eternal life in hell or anywhere else.
You're right, he's wrong Kormagh. But you aren't going to convince his closed mind with any scriptural text no matter how clear it is that sinners do go to a place of torment in hell.
He and his buddies tell us there is no place of torment. Really?
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Now notice, the devil, the false prophet (a man) and the beast (a man) are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever and ever.
But remember what Jesus said to those he judges in that coming great day. Observe:
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Who was Jesus talking to in the verse? Sinners who rejected Him! Just read the context of Matthew 25!
Because there are other everlasting punishments besides eternal torment. Death is one of these. Coincidentally (or not) Death is also the wages of sin. Since the wages of sin is death, then death is the everlasting punishment. So it makes a great deal of difference if it is not the exact words eternally tormented.Jesus called it "everlasting punishment." Same thing. So what if it's not the same exact words as "eternally tormented."
I would guess that there's more about God's wrath than His love in the Bible.Ok, on second thought, its not important enough to me to debate, I just wanted to throw in my two cents. It doesn't apply to me anyway. I know where I'm going and I guess we'll see what happens to everyone when we get to judgement day. And I won't preach hellfire and brimstone because I think God's love is a more powerful tool for salvation. Bless you and thanks for the input.
And that is indisputable. If eternal life never ends then neither does eternal punishment in the eternal fire.Look at the ancient Greek. It's all there. I'm going to post this one more time, and then I am finished.
In Matthew 25:46, Jesus Christ describes both heaven and hell as being eternal. He uses the same phrase for both. In the original Greek, this phrase is "aionas ton aionon". It literally means extending into infinity, forever and ever. If you have a problem with this phrase meaning eternal, then you must also accept that God has not existed forever, for the very same phrase is used to describe Him.
To disagree with me, you would have to admit that either Jesus was lying, or that God is not eternal. Either way, if you're correct, then Christianity is bogus and I need to find a new belief system.
An argument used by many. But the fact is punishment in the eternal fire is taught throughout the NT.I'm not a scholar or anything, but I've got a few points and questions. Please don't take me to be 'one of them' as it were - I'm neither a "eternal tormentalist" nor an annihilationist.
1. "Hell" appears many times in the NT, but that doesn't mean it says "hell" in the original manuscripts. For instance, Jesus didn't talk about hell on the sermon on the mount. He said Gehenna, and it seems reasonable that he referred to the actual physical place Gehenna, though in methaphor. Then "Gehenna" was translated into "hell" in many copies of the bible.
2. As far as I know, the concept of eternal punishment is nowhere to be found in the OT, which is strange if that's the fate of the vast majority of every human God has created.
3. Jesus took the punishment for our sins. If the punishment for sins is eternal torture, how can Jesus NOT be in hell as we speak?
4. The bible may mention hell (though only one or two passages seems to define it as eternal suffering - again, strange if that's indeed the fate of most people who ever lived) many times, but more than that, it keeps repeating that God will judge righteously. Personally I can't think of any person who deserves to be tortured without end. And I find it hard to believe that something or someone (God himself?) forces God to punish anyone infinitely more than they deserve.
That didn't really address Holo's argument. The fact is that eternal punishment by torment is not taught in the Bible at all.An argument used by many. But the fact is punishment in the eternal fire is taught throughout the NT.
Did they remove Luke 16, Rev 14, Rev 20 ? Nope, I checked. Still there. MT 25? Still there. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending, exact same Greek words.That didn't really address Holo's argument. The fact is that eternal punishment by torment is not taught in the Bible at all.
Mattew 25:41, 46
read them again
I really don't mean to be difficult, but where does it actually say that the unsaved will live and be tormented forever? That the fire is eternal doesn't mean that what you throw in the fire will be eternal as well. Like when Jesus compared it to branches being thrown in the fire.An argument used by many. But the fact is punishment in the eternal fire is taught throughout the NT.
The punishment is eternal, but your soul is not. You don't have eternal life by default, it's something God gives to those who are saved.Did they remove Luke 16, Rev 14, Rev 20 ? Nope, I checked. Still there. MT 25? Still there. Eternal life, eternal punishment, NEVER ending, exact same Greek words.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)I really don't mean to be difficult, but where does it actually say that the unsaved will live and be tormented forever?
Then there would be no point in having eternal fire.That the fire is eternal doesn't mean that what you throw in the fire will be eternal as well. Like when Jesus compared it to branches being thrown in the fire.
Are you preaching annihilation?The punishment is eternal, but your soul is not. You don't have eternal life by default, it's something God gives to those who are saved.
If the soul is not eternal, it wouldn't even need to be annihilated. It sounds like he is saying that there is only eternal life in Jesus Christ and those who do not have eternal life, do not have eternal life. I think that if a special label needs to be put on this other than "the gospel", Conditional Immortality would do. Humans are only immortal under one "condition", that they receive eternal life from Jesus Christ.Are you preaching annihilation?
True. But that's ONE verse that says they will be tormented forever. The bible often seems to contradict itself, but we see how one verse harmonizes or explains or modifies another, and how every verse must be seen in the context of the entire scriptures. If the fate of the majority of people who ever lived is eternal torment one would suppose that bible would be very clear on that from the very beginning. As far as I know there's no mention of hell at all in the OT.Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then there would be no point in having eternal fire.
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