Why am I paying for someone else's sin?

Hakan101 · Jul 5, 2011

To the OP, we were born with sin. We're not paying for Adam and Eve, we naturally sin ourselves, and we do it willingly. The first step towards Christianity is acknowledging that you are a wicked sinner and have no excuse. But many people have a hard time accepting this, because they think they are a "good person" compared to other people. People tolerate the fact that they are not perfect, but are shocked and offended to be called "wicked." But other people are not the standard you get to compare yourself to with God. It must be God's standard that he intended for us.

So in truth, we are guilty for our own sins. This is why we need Christ.

Ishraqiyun · Jul 5, 2011

The undeniable answer to that question is, "No. That's not fair.

I think it is safe to say that reality isn't always "fair". Why is there ignorance / evil in the first place? Interesting question but not necessarily one you are going to be able to answer in a manner that is beyond doubt through any rational process. People have been trying to crack that one for thousands of years. The key is to find liberation.

It's like a story the Buddha related. There was a man who was shot with an arrow. Someone came along and offered to take it out. He replied "Before you take it out I must first know the name of the person who shot me".. Then he went on to ask the caste of the person who shot him, why did he shoot me, etc... , He refused to have it removed until all his questions were answered. He died before he got all the answers he wanted. The key is to remove the arrow and that is what the Christian path is about. It's not a collection of answers to every conceivable question. It isn't an intellectual system. It's more like a medical treatment for the soul.

If bombs and/or our ability to make them (sin) never existed, then you wouldn't have blown up your house (sin influence), therefore you couldn't have leveled your next door neighbors house

Yes, if things were different they would be different. Like Plato I view time as the moving image of eternity though. There is no "different". It is what it is.

It would be rather short sighted to say: "We have to live with it" and not question the person that allowed this as your only situation.

I didn't mean to give the impression that it is wrong to ask these things. At the end of the day we have to deal with reality as it is rather than reality how we would like it to be though.

lucaspa · Jul 5, 2011

Mediakira said:
Sure, But don't forget the serpent that made Eve eat the fruit of Knowledge. That was forbidden. That made God turn away from them.

He didn't "make" Eve eat the fruit. He tempted Eve and provided false information. In that sense, the serpent is allegorical for temptation. To which we all succumb, don't we?

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

solarwave said:
You don't. You sin because you are imperfect and choose to. You are imperfect because of your biology and the influence of culture. Adam and Eve didn't exist.

That's rather contradictory.

I'm quite positive several Christians would disagree with only my biology and cultural influences affecting my imperfectness...

If I am imperfect, then I have no choice but to sin against God.

A dog can't choose to not be anything but a dog, and we would be silly to tell it that it should strive to not be like a dog.

Ishraqiyun · Jul 5, 2011

I agree with Lucaspa the Genesis account of Adam and Eve isn't a literal history. It's a mythological account of the fall into evil, sin, and ignorance of humanity as a whole.

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

Hakan101 said:
To the OP, we were born with sin... we naturally sin ourselves, and we do it willingly.

How can you call something we naturally do, because we were born that way, as something we did willingly?

My body was born with the ability to extract nutrients and expel the rest. Our bodies do this naturally and involuntary.

To describe when I go to the bathroom, are you going to use the phrase, "He willingly went to the bathroom"?

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

Ishraqiyun said:
It's like a story the Buddha related. There was a man who was shot with an arrow. Someone came along and offered to take it out. He replied "Before you take it out I must first know the name of the person who shot me".. Then he went on to ask the caste of the person who shot him, why did he shoot me, etc... , He refused to have it removed until all his questions were answered. He died before he got all the answers he wanted. The key is to remove the arrow and that is what the Christian path is about. It's not a collection of answers to every conceivable question. It isn't an intellectual system. It's more like a medical treatment for the soul.

If you want your story to not be related, then it's a stellar example of one. I prefer my analogous stories to be applicable in both situations.

A man was show with a physical arrow.

Any conclusions you arrive at (from a supernatural, unseen arrow and/or intangible arrow) are merely projections, validating your current beliefs.

Now the story reads, "There was a man who was shot with something he couldn't see, touch or feel and decided to go on a quest, asking who shot him..."

Which makes him mentally unstable.

Ishraqiyun said:
I didn't mean to give the impression that it is wrong to ask these things. At the end of the day we have to deal with reality as it is rather than reality how we would like it to be though.

Agreed.

I just prefer my reality to be based on what I can test for, and see no need to have to involve the supernatural, as an explanation.

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

lucaspa said:
He didn't "make" Eve eat the fruit. He tempted Eve and provided false information. In that sense, the serpent is allegorical for temptation. To which we all succumb, don't we?

If I tempt you to cheat on your spouse with me, and you do, what kind of person am I?

By the way, I also gave you false information.

Ishraqiyun · Jul 5, 2011

I just prefer my reality to be based on what I can test for, and see

Makes sense to me. I wouldn't limit the "see" to what I experience in connection with my physical eyes alone though. All experience can be taken into consideration.

Now the story reads, "There was a man who was shot with something he couldn't see, touch or feel and decided to go on a quest, asking who shot him..."

Any conclusions you arrive at (from a supernatural, unseen arrow and/or intangible arrow) are merely projections, validating your current beliefs.

The arrow is experienced on a daily basis. It's our suffering and the unsatisfactory state we find ourselves in as a result of ignorance. It's the cause of all our questioning and searching. It's probably one of the most apparent thing about life. I wouldn't necessarily call it "supernatural" either.

lucaspa · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
What are our sins and how did we get them, and didn't Eve and Adam bring sin into our world?

Sin is disobeying God. You are reading Genesis 3 too literally. It's not history; it's allegory.

In Genesis 3 the specific disobedience is eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That was specifically prohibited by God in Genesis 2. However, that simply represents all the disobedience humans do, every time we fail to "love your neighbor as yourself".

In Romans chapter 5 Paul tries to make a connection between Adam and Jesus. It's a symbolic connection. In the process, Paul, quite frankly, contradicts Genesis 2-3 as well as other scriptural passages. He has sin coming into the world with Adam. But Paul does that so he can emphasize that Jesus defeats sin and takes the consequences of sin away. It's about who and what Jesus is, not about history.

Did sin already exist or did it have a start?

As I said, sin is disobeying God. Where and when in your life was your first sin? Can you remember? Each of us starts our sin. The point is not whether sin has a start, but rather that the start is inevitable. Since sin is disobeying God, it means putting our interests above God's. IOW, selfishness. Ever heard of the "selfish gene" idea? Natural selection cannot be purely altruistic. It's impossible. Selfishness is an integral part of us by the very process God used to create us.

Hakan101 · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
How can you call something we naturally do, because we were born that way, as something we did willingly?

My body was born with the ability to extract nutrients and expel the rest. Our bodies do this naturally and involuntary.

To describe when I go to the bathroom, are you going to use the phrase, "He willingly went to the bathroom"?

This is wrong thinking. It is suggesting that sin is an involuntary, necessary function of man. This is false. Sin is a natural inclination and a voluntary action, but it is not necessary and is in fact evil. When a man murders someone, you would not say he did it involuntarily. Furthermore, while many of us do not rape people, how many husbands or wives have looked at another man or a woman and lustfully desired them? How many have looked at someone of great fame or wealth and grew jealous against such a person? Sin is something in our nature, if we are born with a default setting it would be set on "Sin." We are inclined to sin and we willingly sin. Because we enjoy it, this is why we are wicked.

lucaspa · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
If someone creates the internet, then everybody has no choice but to use the internet and then they simultaneously all get penalized for using the internet... well, that's just how it is?

That's not a valid analogy.

Eve chose to eat the fruit. Adam chose to eat the fruit. As an allegory, it means that you choose to disobey God. Your choice. You could theoretically choose not to. But you don't.

You seem to want to duck your own responsibility here, even tho you have a group of Christians telling you it is your responsibility.

Jesus or God isn't my life raft. They are the ones that pushed me overboard.

If that is the way you feel about it, and you aren't willing to listen to reasons that this is not the case, then it looks like Christianity is the wrong religion for you. Go find another.

lucaspa · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
If I tempt you to cheat on your spouse with me, and you do, what kind of person am I?

So the serpent is a bad person. It did get punished, remember? Or perhaps not. Have you read Genesis 3?

What you seem to have overlooked is that God did NOT do the tempting.

By the way, I also gave you false information.

Click to expand...

So the serpent is also a liar. DUH! We figured that out a long time ago. But the serpent is NOT God. Do you get that? Or are you so stuck on your position that you don't care about facts and reasoning anymore? Just because your screen name is a logical fallacy doesn't mean you have to commit logical fallacies.

Eve and Adam did have a choice. They were not compelled to listen to the serpent or do what the serpent urged. They chose to disobey. We are not compelled either; we choose to disobey.

You used the example of your body processing nutrients. Yes, it does so. And does so involuntarily. But you choose how much to eat, don't you? You choose to eat healthy foods or unhealthy foods, don't you? So your overeating of junk foods (if you do) is your choice, isn't it?

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

Ishraqiyun said:
The arrow is experienced on a daily basis. It's our suffering and the unsatisfactory state we find ourselves in as a result of ignorance. It's the cause of all our questioning and searching. It's probably one of the most apparent thing about life. I wouldn't necessarily call it "supernatural" either.

Anything not natural (physical world or material world) is supernatural.

"The arrow is experienced on a daily basis."

The guy didn't get hit by an arrow on a daily basis.

If your friend got mugged, you wouldn't say "We all get punched in the gut, on a daily basis, by life."

Wait, I see what you did there...

You took a example of something specific, with physical attributes, and transcended them to generalities and states of satisfaction.

Kudos.

elman · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Um...

We are/can be sinful, because of their original sin/transgression.

Why didn't it end with them, and each newborn person was born they way they were originally?

Each new born is born free of guilt. Ezekiel 18. We do not sin because Adam and Eve sinned. We sin because we make our own wrong choices.

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

elman said:
Each new born is born free of guilt. Ezekiel 18. We do not sin because Adam and Eve sinned. We sin because we make our own wrong choices.

Their choices affect all of us.

Why didn't our ability to sin end with them? Why are we not free to live in a sinful world, as they did? Make our choice to eat from the tree or not?

elman · Jul 5, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Their choices affect all of us.

Why didn't our ability to sin end with them? Why are we not free to live in a sinful world, as they did? Make our choice to eat from the tree or not?

Yes our choices both bad and good effect people around us. We suffer not only for our own sins but because others sin. We do have our choices and we make them. That may be necessary for us to develop into loving beings.

Biker Angel · Jul 5, 2011

lucaspa said:
So the serpent is also a liar. DUH! We figured that out a long time ago. But the serpent is NOT God. Do you get that? Or are you so stuck on your position that you don't care about facts and reasoning anymore? Just because your screen name is a logical fallacy doesn't mean you have to commit logical fallacies.

That unit, Nomad also known as Non sequitur, is malfunctioning and will have to be beamed into outer space. we will have to use the anti-gravs

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

Adam and Eve walked with God and were able to hear him clearly; their belief in him was not required to hear him. Eve got to see a talking snake.

It's rather bogus that the one I am in is exponentially different than theirs, but still yields the same results. Why can't I be placed in the same conditions, and then choose to sin or not to sin? Why this dumbed-down and simplified version?

If you test things differently, you can only expect to get different results.

lucaspa said:
You used the example of your body processing nutrients. Yes, it does so. And does so involuntarily. But you choose how much to eat, don't you? You choose to eat healthy foods or unhealthy foods, don't you? So your overeating of junk foods (if you do) is your choice, isn't it?

Your premise of, "we were born with sin... we naturally sin ourselves, and we do it willingly" is our current reality, because it exists in a closed system.

This is like locking a child in a room (who had no choice in the matter) and telling him that, he only needs to find the imaginary keys to exit.

Now days, all children are locked in a room soon after being cognitive.

And also, that really bad things will happen to him after he dies if he does not reach the outside of the room before then.

However, those keys will never appear before him physically and he can only learn about them by reading up on them.

You have kindly stocked a bookshelf full of books on imaginary keys in his room.

Godspeed, child.

Non sequitur · Jul 5, 2011

Biker for Christ said:
That unit, Nomad also known as Non sequitur, is malfunctioning and will have to be beamed into outer space. we will have to use the anti-gravs

*sigh*

When you used the word "He" in your previous post, I was assuming you were talking about God, not Satan.

Most people start with a proper name, then use pronouns to talk about them afterwards.

You never started with the word "Satan", so I assumed the usual definition of He; God.

I hope you are paying attention, Biker for Christ, because this is what people do when they are wrong or misunderstand:

"I apologize, lucaspa, for my misinterpretation and my following comprehension of what you were talking about."

Maybe you can learn manners and etiquette, from an atheist, after all

By the way, your signature image is either about man's ability to defy the law of nature, set by your god, or that man is using that box to replicate or circumvent the powers of your god, allowing us to defy his law of nature.

Both comical

Go man!

Why am I paying for someone else's sin?

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