why adventist hate polls?

[Adventist Dissident]

I've noticed adventist don't like to take polls. why is that. A poll is just a mesurement to gague a ratio. it should be no big deal to give your opion but for some reason it is when it is in a poll. Why? What are you guys afraid of? What is the problem?

 

[Sophia7]

I think it depends on what the content of the poll is. One thing to consider is that a lot of people don't like to vote in public polls. You will often get more responses if you set it up so that people can't see who voted which way.

 

[woobadooba]

Perhaps it's because most of us realize that what we think is true about someone else doesn't necessarily constitute truth.

It's one thing to take a poll about what flavor of ice-cream each one of us prefers; it's something else entirely to take a poll on who we believe is telling the truth and who is telling lies.

We can believe that someone is a liar, but discover later on that we were completely off base in believing that. I think it's better to allow God to be the Judge.

To try to take His seat of judgment on matters of the heart is to attempt to stir up trouble amongst His people.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I love surveys and polls and participate in them all the time. I won't, however, be participating in one that asks "how" Adventist I am or one where I have to decide if Danny or Linda Shelton is lying.

It's juvenile.

When I was baptized I declared that I believed in all the fundamental beliefs of my church. If I hadn't agreed, I wouldn't have signed it.

I feel sorry for anyone that did say they believed in the very fundamentals of our church if they didn't.

Many blessings,
~Lainie

 

[Sophia7]

I feel sorry for anyone that did say they believed in the very fundamentals of our church if they didn't.

There are many Adventists who used to agree with all of the fundamentals, but their views changed later.

 

[TrustAndObey]

There are many Adventists who used to agree with all of the fundamentals, but their views changed later.

Oh I know, and that's the problem.

If they no longer believe in the foundations of a church, then they don't need to be in that particular church anymore.

Instead of trying to make everyone change to their new view of scripture, they need to seek after one that teaches what they now believe.

If I had stayed in the Baptist church after I realized how many untruths I was being taught, I would be a hypocrit. And if I had stayed and tried to convert everyone to MY way of thinking, it would've been ludicrous.

The fundamental beliefs, the bare bones the church stands on are what we agreed to in baptism. If that view changed then we don't believe in that church anymore.

To me it really is as simple as that.

People leave churches all the time when they disagree with what's being taught there.

 

[Sophia7]

Oh I know, and that's the problem.

If they no longer believe in the foundations of a church, then they don't need to be in that particular church anymore.

Instead of trying to make everyone change to their new view of scripture, they need to seek after one that teaches what they now believe.

If I had stayed in the Baptist church after I realized how many untruths I was being taught, I would be a hypocrit. And if I had stayed and tried to convert everyone to MY way of thinking, it would've been ludicrous.

The fundamental beliefs, the bare bones the church stands on are what we agreed to in baptism. If that view changed then we don't believe in that church anymore.

To me it really is as simple as that.

People leave churches all the time when they disagree with what's being taught there.

The 28 fundamentals are not supposed to be a creed, yet they are for all practical purposes used that way. If everyone who disagreed with one or more of them left the church, it would result in a huge loss of membership. I'm not sure if you are aware of how much disagreement there is in the church at large on doctrinal issues. Even some of our most traditional members disagree on several things. We have some church members who would in most resepects be considered historic Adventists but who disagree with the fundamental beliefs on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit (not all historics do). Should they leave, too, even though they accept the IJ and EGW? Which things are non-negotiable? Even in regard to the six or seven core beliefs that many Adventists see as essential to our identity, there is no universal agreement on which things should be included on the list. These are not black-and-white issues that can be settled simply by applying the 28 as a tool to root out heretics.

For me personally, so far I haven't found a church that I can agree with on everything. So what would you have me do? Go nowhere? I've been told by several people that if I no longer agree with everything Adventists teach, I should leave immediately, but that's just not an option for me right now. On several points, Adventist beliefs keep me from considering many other churches. So I'm kind of stuck without a place to belong even though I grew up in the Adventist Church. I have no burden to try to make everyone else believe as I do; I just want to not be condemned for disagreeing with them if I express my views.

 

[woobadooba]

The 28 fundamentals are not supposed to be a creed, yet they are for all practical purposes used that way. If everyone who disagreed with one or more of them left the church, it would result in a huge loss of membership. I'm not sure if you are aware of how much disagreement there is in the church at large on doctrinal issues. Even some of our most traditional members disagree on several things. We have some church members who would in most resepects be considered historic Adventists but who disagree with the fundamental beliefs on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit (not all historics do). Should they leave, too, even though they accept the IJ and EGW? Which things are non-negotiable? Even in regard to the six or seven core beliefs that many Adventists see as essential to our identity, there is no universal agreement on which things should be included on the list. These are not black-and-white issues that can be settled simply by applying the 28 as a tool to root out heretics.

For me personally, so far I haven't found a church that I can agree with on everything. So what would you have me do? Go nowhere? I've been told by several people that if I no longer agree with everything Adventists teach, I should leave immediately, but that's just not an option for me right now. On several points, Adventist beliefs keep me from considering many other churches. So I'm kind of stuck without a place to belong even though I grew up in the Adventist Church. I have no burden to try to make everyone else believe as I do; I just want to not be condemned for disagreeing with them if I express my views.

I hear what you're saying.

However, what do you do with one who has a position within a certain type of ministry that is designated to be held on a contingency basis, such as one would have to agree to uphold certain beliefs that are incorporated into the system in order to keep that position; and that person initially agreed to this, but gradually changed his way of thinking; yet, he continues to operate within that system under its financial support while not adhering to teachings that are required to be upheld in order to remain in that position...is this not dishonest and hypocritical?

It doesn't matter how wrong the system is, and how right the person that doesn't agree with it may be. What matters is that we take a strong stand for what we believe in, even to the point of being rejected by all those people who operate within that system under such contingencies.

 

[Sophia7]

I hear what you're saying.

However, what do you do with one who has a position within a certain type of ministry that is designated to be held on a contingency basis, such as one would have to agree to uphold certain beliefs that are incorporated into the system in order to keep that position; and that person initially agreed to this, but gradually changed his way of thinking; yet, he continues to operate within that system under its financial support while not adhering to teachings that are required to be upheld in order to remain in that position...is this not dishonest and hypocritical?

It doesn't matter how wrong the system is, and how right the person that doesn't agree with it may be. What matters is that we take a strong stand for what we believe in, even to the point of being rejected by all those people who operate within that system under such contingencies.

If you are referring to my husband, he hasn't made a decision on the issues in question yet. If it turns out that he can't continue to accept the traditional view of the IJ, for example, then, yes, he would have to resign from his position of ministry. He is not at that point yet, though. He is studying in order to be sure of what to believe before making a decision. If there is some way to reconcile this with the Bible, he would like to find it. It's not a choice to be taken lightly.

My views are not always the same as his, though, so please don't assume that he agrees with everything that I post. I am fairly certain that I can no longer accept some of the traditional beliefs. However, I am not paid by the denomination. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't leave the church while my husband was a pastor, even if I could find somewhere else to go.

 

[OntheDL]

If you are referring to my husband, he hasn't made a decision on the issues in question yet. If it turns out that he can't continue to accept the traditional view of the IJ, for example, then, yes, he would have to resign from his position of ministry. He is not at that point yet, though. He is studying in order to be sure of what to believe before making a decision. If there is some way to reconcile this with the Bible, he would like to find it. It's not a choice to be taken lightly.

My views are not always the same as his, though, so please don't assume that he agrees with everything that I post. I am fairly certain that I can no longer accept some of the traditional beliefs. However, I am not paid by the denomination. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't leave the church while my husband was a pastor, even if I could find somewhere else to go.

You shouldn't be condemned for disagreeing with the foundamental believes of the SDA church. However if you and your husband have said at your local churchs the same things you and your husband had posted here, I'm sure there'd be serious problems for your family. There are times, the both of you had posted very antagonistic messages, almost as if they came from the most severe critics of SDA church.

I'd think you'll agree that many of 28 foundamentals are common to the mainstream christianity. But on those you disagree with: IJ and the SOP as the testimony of Jesus for the remnant people, they justify the very existence of the SDA denomination.

If you can not say certain things at your local churchs, you should show the same restraint here even when your identities are hidden. I think that's fair.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

If it turns out that he can't continue to accept the traditional view of the IJ, for example, then, yes, he would have to resign from his position of ministry.

In truth there are very few SDA pastors who hold to the traditional IJ interpretation. That is why most don't even talk about the doctrine anymore. It is reinterpreted in such ways as people as diverse as Clifford Goldstein and Graham Maxwell. They redefine the importance of 1844 from heaven to the appearance of the Adventist church albeit many years later they say that 1844 was the beginning.

After Glacier View in 1980 many of those involved acknowledged they had questions about the IJ doctrine, they were not told to leave. Many of course did leave because of their agreement with Ford but there was no request for them to leave by the SDA church.

What you see here is the guilt tactic that the TSDA's use whenever their theories are questioned. They have tradition on their side and they intend to exploit that tradition so that they cannot be questioned. Very similar to the old Roman Catholic church. Of course if tradition ruled we would most all still be Roman Catholic and there would have been no reformation.

Religion is a poor business when it demands allegiance to a strict set of beliefs. In general that has not been the SDA mode of operation though at times it seems to arise. Those times of darkness have been a curse to the denomination as well as the people.

 

[woobadooba]

What you see here is the guilt tactic that the TSDA's use whenever their theories are questioned. They have tradition on their side and they intend to exploit that tradition so that they cannot be questioned. Very similar to the old Roman Catholic church. Of course if tradition ruled we would most all still be Roman Catholic and there would have been no reformation

I asked an honest question.

Are you accusing me of trying to place guilt on people?

 

[TrustAndObey]

The 28 fundamentals are not supposed to be a creed, yet they are for all practical purposes used that way. If everyone who disagreed with one or more of them left the church, it would result in a huge loss of membership. I'm not sure if you are aware of how much disagreement there is in the church at large on doctrinal issues. Even some of our most traditional members disagree on several things. We have some church members who would in most resepects be considered historic Adventists but who disagree with the fundamental beliefs on the Trinity and the Holy Spirit (not all historics do). Should they leave, too, even though they accept the IJ and EGW? Which things are non-negotiable? Even in regard to the six or seven core beliefs that many Adventists see as essential to our identity, there is no universal agreement on which things should be included on the list. These are not black-and-white issues that can be settled simply by applying the 28 as a tool to root out heretics.

For me personally, so far I haven't found a church that I can agree with on everything. So what would you have me do? Go nowhere? I've been told by several people that if I no longer agree with everything Adventists teach, I should leave immediately, but that's just not an option for me right now. On several points, Adventist beliefs keep me from considering many other churches. So I'm kind of stuck without a place to belong even though I grew up in the Adventist Church. I have no burden to try to make everyone else believe as I do; I just want to not be condemned for disagreeing with them if I express my views.

I think you know you'll always have a place within the Adventist church. That's one thing I love about my little church, for sure.

I have a dear friend that I admire a lot and she recently left the Adventist church to become Messianic. She felt she needed to do that because they wear head coverings (the women do) and because they celebrate the feasts....two things my friend feels very strongly about.

She said she felt like a hypocrit for continuing to go to the Adventist church when we don't wear head coverings or openly observe the feasts.

I talked with her one night on the internet and I asked her what they teach about death and she said that at the particular church she is (was) going to that they taught the immortal soul.

I asked her if she was starting to believe that too and she said "never".

I then asked her if she felt comfortable having to compromise one belief in order to get another, and she said no.

Here's what's weird, not everyone in that church felt that our souls are immortal and apparently they'd all just cringe when it was being talked about at the pulpit.

She decided to drive 45 minutes away from there to a different Messianic church and at that one it was the general consensus among members that we sleep until the resurrection, but that in order to make everyone happy, they just don't discuss that topic.

I really did not want to become Adventist, and that's the truth. I didn't want to go to the same church as my mother-in-law. I've told this story on here before, so most of you know that it's not because I don't love her dearly, it was because I was....well, devastated when I couldn't prove her wrong with scripture. I had to eat a lot of crow and I hated every second of it.

I sought out the Seventh-day Baptist church first because I had been raised Baptist my entire life. I was convicted about the Sabbath and had no doubts about it, so I figured this would be PERFECT for me.

I e-mailed with quite a few pastors about coming to visit. I asked all of them what they taught about death, and the answer I always got was basically "we don't really discuss that."

I was just as convicted about what happens to us when we die as I was about Sabbath, and I just couldn't go to a church that didn't teach that biblical truth. I felt by NOT taking a stand for it that they were compromising the Word of God. I still feel that way.

Seventh-day Baptists don't believe in Ellen White or the Investigative Judgment, but they won't teach you about the resurrection on the last day. Messianics don't believe in Ellen White or the Investigative Judgment, but some won't tell you about the resurrection and they all celebrate the feasts.

There are options for people that have problems with EGW or IJ. What I can tell you though, from my personal experience, is that you will have to compromise other beliefs there too by just "not discussing" them openly with everyone in the church.

I don't know what the answer is.

I just know that every Sunday when my parents invite me to breakfast, I get asked weekly "what are you, a Jew?" or "when did you become Muslim on us?" when I refuse to eat any pork. Or my favorite "why would you put yourself BACK under the law?"

I've faced a lot of ridicule within my own FAMILY about becoming an Adventist. Every one of them freaked out when I told them I was going to read the Bible for myself, because in our little church it really wasn't encouraged and we were told that people weren't "smart" enough to interpret it themselves.

I think deep down they all knew I probably wouldn't be Baptist anymore after I read it. I threw a big ol' wrench in generation after generation after generation of being Baptist in my family.

I had to follow my heart though and it really was painful at times. My family seems to think I've betrayed them somehow, especially when I won't help put up a Christmas tree anymore or that I won't lie to my children about Santa and let them have that "joy" (as silly as those two things are).

So, Sophia I really do understand questioning the church you were raised in. I'm the poster child for that very thing, and I wholeheartedly encourage it.

What I won't ever understand is compromising anything you believe or that you feel scripture teaches.

Once someone just refuses to talk about something they feel strongly about and quietly just shakes their head when someone discusses something they DON'T agree with, I feel that they've quit being honest.

I just plug along daily, making my family angry by the mere fact that I'm not Baptist and by coming to a forum where my reports get ignored or people from the SAME church call me ignorant for believing things that I do.....but hey, it's my life and I wouldn't change seats with anyone that isn't being honest with themselves for even a second.

I can't imagine why you seeking a different church isn't an "option" but I do know this....God opens doors for us that we can't, and if He's calling you to believe something else then He'll make sure you have a way to express that openly. He's an awesome God!

I always think back to the Christians cowering in a room afraid that the same men that came after Jesus would come after them. The 40 believers in Christ sure have multiplied since then, AMEN!!!

 

[TrustAndObey]

I forgot to mention that at the Messianic church my friend now attends, they teach a completely different message about the beast power and the last days.

 

[Sophia7]

If you can not say certain things at your local churchs, you should show the same restraint here even when your identities are hidden. I think that's fair.

No, that's not fair at all. I can't talk about these things with our local members, but I have found it helpful to discuss them online. It has helped me work out several things as I have considered different people's perspectives. You don't know what it's like to be in the position that I'm in as a pastor's wife, with no one to talk to in real life other than my husband. Until you have experienced that, please don't tell me how I should post here. I may ask tough questions and sometimes be critical of teachings that I can no longer accept, but the forum rules permit that. I don't flame people, and I respect your beliefs even though I don't always agree with them. OntheDL, even you have given me a lot to think about , and I appreciate many of your posts because I think it's good to be able to discuss things with people who have such widely divergent views.

 

[Sophia7]

So, Sophia I really do understand questioning the church you were raised in. I'm the poster child for that very thing, and I wholeheartedly encourage it.

I know you understand that, and I'm glad you were able to find something that you wholeheartedly believe in.

What I won't ever understand is compromising anything you believe or that you feel scripture teaches.

Once someone just refuses to talk about something they feel strongly about and quietly just shakes their head when someone discusses something they DON'T agree with, I feel that they've quit being honest.

Herein lies a big part of my problem. I've studied the beliefs of many, many other churches, and I don't agree with any of them on everything. I don't think any of them have the complete truth, including ours. I don't want to be dishonest, but I'm not sure how to resolve this, other than not going to church (which is not an option for me as a Christian) or starting our own church (which is not a desirable idea to me for several reasons). The only thing is that if my husband were not a pastor, then it wouldn't be such a big deal to me to speak openly if I disagreed with something that our church taught. I'm not the type of person who normally just goes along with something that I think is wrong.

I just plug along daily, making my family angry by the mere fact that I'm not Baptist and by coming to a forum where my reports get ignored or people from the SAME church call me ignorant for believing things that I do.....but hey, it's my life and I wouldn't change seats with anyone that isn't being honest with themselves for even a second.

Just so you know, no reports are ignored here, but it sometimes takes a while for staff to handle them because we have to discuss things as a team, and there have been some staff changes and people gone recently.

I can't imagine why you seeking a different church isn't an "option" but I do know this....God opens doors for us that we can't, and if He's calling you to believe something else then He'll make sure you have a way to express that openly. He's an awesome God!

I always think back to the Christians cowering in a room afraid that the same men that came after Jesus would come after them. The 40 believers in Christ sure have multiplied since then, AMEN!!!

I have been looking into different churches, as I said, but switching is not an option for me right now because of my husband's job. Unless he decides that he can't be a pastor anymore, I really have no choice. I trust God to direct our steps and show us what He wants us to do, though. And unless He points us clearly in another direction, I don't see any reason to go to another church that I would probably disagree with even more than the Adventist Church.

 

[OntheDL]

No, that's not fair at all. I can't talk about these things with our local members, but I have found it helpful to discuss them online. It has helped me work out several things as I have considered different people's perspectives. You don't know what it's like to be in the position that I'm in as a pastor's wife, with no one to talk to in real life other than my husband. Until you have experienced that, please don't tell me how I should post here. I may ask tough questions and sometimes be critical of teachings that I can no longer accept, but the forum rules permit that. I don't flame people, and I respect your beliefs even though I don't always agree with them. OntheDL, even you have given me a lot to think about , and I appreciate many of your posts because I think it's good to be able to discuss things with people who have such widely divergent views.

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I grew up in an atheist family. I'm now an outcast basically. When I found the sabbath truth while I was attending a baptist church, I left there and many of good people I made friends with. I have never felt my conviction is a burden. I'm quite happy and at peace with the decisions I made.

There are some, particularly young people here look up to you and your husband. When things were said with anger and bitterness(at times I sense), that's what I objected it. You know what I mean? Not what is said but how is said. Of course I'm often guilty of that myself.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

Not what is said but how is said.

Amen, I agree totally with you there mate

 

[TrustAndObey]

Sophia, I really appreciate you talking with us openly and honestly. It does help to know that you're not just "anti-Adventist" and that this is a real struggle.

When I said I couldn't understand why switching churches wasn't an option for you I had completely forgotten that Tall is an Adventist pastor! My apologies for that, and now I do totally understand what you're saying.

Herein lies a big part of my problem. I've studied the beliefs of many, many other churches, and I don't agree with any of them on everything. I don't think any of them have the complete truth, including ours.

I agree. Human error creeps into every single church.

That's why I tried to seek out several different churches before I made my final decision. I studied a LOT of them. I started with those that kept the Sabbath (which narrows them down A LOT....haha), and then the truth about death (which narrows them down even FURTHER).

There are friends of mine within the Adventist church (not my little church here, just the Adventist church as a whole) that will tell people that Jesus is God and that the Father and Son are not separate in any way....I wholeheartedly disagree with that and that's not what is taught in my church.

I won't compromise on that belief either and at times they've accused me of "undermining" them on message boards and not standing in unity with them....but I felt they were in error. However, I do know how they feel because it's very disheartening when another Adventist says "oh that's not true!"

I've said on here repeatedly that having our beliefs QUESTIONED is one of the best ways to learn whether or not you believe something strongly, or not at all.

The fundamentals though.....that's a toughie because that's the foundation. I can't say that having another Adventist argue with me about Sabbath isn't quite the shock, and they won't get a shy response from me on that for sure.

You're in a tough spot, and I don't envy that at all, but I know you're strong enough to make the necessary changes and faithful enough to follow God where He leads you guys.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I grew up in an atheist family. I'm now an outcast basically. When I found the sabbath truth while I was attending a baptist church, I left there and many of good people I made friends with. I have never felt my conviction is a burden. I'm quite happy and at peace with the decisions I made.

OUTCAST POWERS...ACTIVATE!

I know exactly how you feel OntheDL. I struggle with being an outcast all the time. I have a very loving family but I've seen the worst in some of them come out over my decision to become Adventist. Not one of them accepted my invitation to see Austin and I get baptized.

These are people (my family) that just don't make snide remarks....until NOW. They'll say things like "we might go to see such and such on Saturday but I won't even invite you since you've got your Sabbath "thing" to do."

It was bearable until my oldest son decided he wanted to be on the school's basketball team (every single game is on Sabbath). I tried to put my foot down and I saw true anger from my father.