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Why a literalist presumption?

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Vance

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Most YEC's here would agree that were it not for their presumption that the Genesis accounts of Creation and the Flood were meant to be read as literal historical narrative, the evidence from the natural world would be compelling enough to conclude the universe and the earth were old, and that God created over a long period of time. Said another way around, it is this literalist presumption which overrides what they would otherwise believe regarding our past and God's method and timing of creation.

So, that presumption is at the core of this issue, and we must look to see whether that presumption is justified. First, it must be said that for most YEC's this seems not to be some sort of default position, a starting point, from which they would move if the evidence was sufficient. It is not a "rebuttable presumption", but their insistance on literalism is a conclusive presumption.

Now, why? Why would strict literal historical narrative be the conclusive presumption? Let's consider some of the factors involved in this issue:

1. We know that the Bible is not a single book written all at one time by a single human author. God inspired dozens of humans over a couple thousand years. It is a collection of inspired texts, with a wide variety of literary styles and genres. God inspired the message, but seemed to let each author use his own "voice" and style in the telling. We have poetry, parable, allegory, prophecy, symbology, typology, letters, epic stories and, yes, some actual history. We do not read Acts the same way we read Revelations, Song of Solomon or even Job, although we recognize that God is telling us TRUTH through all of these styles. So, with all of these varieties of literary styles, with all of these methods for conveying TRUTH, we should be willing to objectively look at these early Genesis accounts and earnestly seek to determine which literary style they are meant to be. Why have a conclusive presumption that it must be a particular one of these? In fact, why even start with a default that it should be a particular genre unless proven otherwise?

2. I have shown elsewhere that the ancient Israelites, at the time these stories were first told, and then first written down, would not have viewed them as strict literal historical narrative. That is simply NOT how they told about their past. Yes, they would have considered them true and valid and believable, but not at all have insisted that they must be factually accurate. I know this is difficult for us to get our modern minds around, but in such matters they did not have our modern biases. Again, I have provided evidence for this in the past, and can do so again if requested.

3. Our modern minds tend to only truly value stories about the past to the extent they are considered historically accurate and literal. If the stories about the past are told in some other literary style, which does NOT attempt to convey strict historical details, we consider it unreliable, untrue and basically invalid. It is JUST a story, it can not be a valid or valuable method of telling us about things that happened in the past. It is something LESS than "true history". Oddly, we can accept a presentation of actual, literal FUTURE events in VERY non-literal terms, as in Revelation. But we have much more difficulty accepting a presentation of actual, literal PAST events in such figurative, symbolic, typological language.

4. The fact that God using such a literary style would cause "confusion" (given His knowledge that we would develop this modern mindset) is no true argument whatsoever. If God had chosen to make Scripture crystal clear so that there would be no disputes over proper interpretation, we would not have hundreds of different denominations and interpretive approaches. Obviously God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to allow the Scriptures to be written in a way that is subject to differing, but sincerely held, beliefs by devout, Bible-believing Christians. This is not evidence of a failure of communication on God's part elsewhere in Scripture, and it should not be seen so in Genesis. Why didn't God inspire the text to be written in a way that all would agree? I can not speak for the rest of Scripture, but for the Genesis accounts, I would argue that HE DID! Given our disputes over the HOW and WHEN, it is amazing that almost all Christians seem to agree on the WHO and WHY. We seem to agree on every theological and doctrinal issue in these Genesis accounts that is necessary for salvation. And isn't it these that are the TRUE message of these accounts?

I would suggest that we consider the texts of the early Genesis presentations in light of the culture, mindset and literary styles of those who first told them and wrote them down. I would suggest that we be willing to let God tell us about these past events using whatever literary style He chose (among the myriad available). I would suggest that we consider whether these presentations are meant to tell us about the WHO and WHY rather than the WHEN and HOW.

I would suggest that we come to these texts WITHOUT presumptions, other than that presumption that it is telling us truth, however that truth is told. I make this call because there is a danger that our attention will be drawn away from the essential message of these accounts by a focus on the historicity of the details. As Augustine said:

"At the outset, you must be very careful lest you take figurative expression literally. What the apostle says pertains to this problem: “for the letter killeth, but the spirit quikeneth.” That is, when that which is said figuratively is taken as though it were literal, it is understood carnally [carnalia]. Nor can anything more appropriately be called the death of the soul than that condition in which the thing which distinguishes us from beasts, which is understanding, is subjected to the flesh in the passing of the letter" [hoc est, intelligentia carni subjicitur sequndo litteram] (On Christian Doctrine 3. 5).

and again when he says:

"37. In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision, even in such as we may find treated in Holy Scripture [and remember, he IS speaking of Genesis here], different Interpretations are sometimes possible without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such a case, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it."
 

vossler

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Vance said:
Most YEC's here would agree that were it not for their presumption that the Genesis accounts of Creation and the Flood were meant to be read as literal historical narrative, the evidence from the natural world would be compelling enough to conclude the universe and the earth were old, and that God created over a long period of time. Said another way around, it is this literalist presumption which overrides what they would otherwise believe regarding our past and God's method and timing of creation.

I will take issue with this "presumption" you make. I don't believe the evidence from the natural world is compelling enough to conclude the universe and earth are old. I've seen more than enough "evidence" that says otherwise. However, it is not my intention to enter into a debate here of how my evidence is superior to yours and you then attempt to trump mine and we go back and forth into oblivion with no one the better off. :eek:

So this post is offered only to disqualify your presumption. :amen:
 
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Vance

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vossler said:
I will take issue with this "presumption" you make. I don't believe the evidence from the natural world is compelling enough to conclude the universe and earth are old. I've seen more than enough "evidence" that says otherwise. However, it is not my intention to enter into a debate here of how my evidence is superior to yours and you then attempt to trump mine and we go back and forth into oblivion with no one the better off. :eek:

So this post is offered only to disqualify your presumption. :amen:

Fair enough. The reason I say this is that in another recent thread, most of the YEC responses seemed to indicate that the evidence from the natural world, absent their interpretation of Scripture, does indeed seem to indicate an old earth. If you are saying that, even if you did not think Scripture said anything at all about the age of the earth, you would look at the overall evidence from nature and conclude that the earth is young, that is fine.
 
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TwinCrier

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1. The bible makes clear distinction as to what is a parable and what is literal truth. Items such as "This parable spake Jesus unto them" are a good way to know when a parable is coming up. When a story goes to such detail as to list names (Noah as opposed to "the prodigal son" for example), number of days, exact measurements etc. it most likely isn't a parable.
2. What is important is not what 'ancient Israelites" thought, but what those inspired to pen the scriptures believed. Jesus referenced Adam, a specific person, by name. This leads me to believe that Christ believed there was an Adam.
3. The scriptures CAN be a valid or valuable method of telling us about things that happened in the past if there are accepted as truth and not fable.
4. I think the whole statement makes the presumption all creationists have presumptions. How presumptuous! ^_^ It is the Holy Spirit that leads to understanding of the scripture, not history, not popular opinion and not science.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier, to address your points as numbered:

1. We are not talking about the distinction between parable and narrative. We are talking about methods of telling about actual events. These, in the ancient near east, were often told with significant details, but were still not taken as strict literal history. Again, I have provided my arguments for this in the past.

2. It is not important how the ancient Israelites would have read this text? Do you not think that gives a significant clue as to how the human author inspired by God meant it to be read? In fact, since the author was from that same culture, and was writing initially FOR that culture, it seems awfully strange that God would require that that human author present the story in a literary style foreign to both him and his hearers and then readers. And Jesus' reference does not indicate that Adam must have been literal, as I have explained before.

3. I agree with what you say on this numbered point exactly. And those of us who read it as a figurative account of true past events DO read it as truth and not as a mere fable. That is where you seem to be mixing things up. Your modern bias is showing and you are proving my point: the modern mind only accepts stories about the past as TRUTH if they are strict literal history.

4. Right, the Holy Spirit guides us both to the true and essential meaning of the text, which we both agree upon, but seems perfectly willing to let us believe what we like regarding the literal/non-literal issue. Again, this clarifies where the true message lies. And, yes, you DO come to the text with a presumption that it must be literal, or at least you start with a presumption that it is literal unless shown otherwise. That is a presumption and a bias which effects your interpretation.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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4. I think the whole statement makes the presumption all creationists have presumptions. How presumptuous! It is the Holy Spirit that leads to understanding of the scripture, not history, not popular opinion and not science.
the problem of denominationalism puts this argument to rest, for ever. Unless the Holy Spirit leads in different directions, i have only to list the issues that divide the church to realize that everyone can't be right ....

The fact that there is NO SCIENTIFIC opposition to a very old earth and universe should give YECists a moment of reflection. As Vance points out, there is NO evidence for a young earth nor is there an opposition outside of a very particular, very historical and geographically localized community interpretation of Gen 1-5.

The Holy Spirit uses means, these means are history, science, etc, to ignore this is to ignore and degrade the whole idea of the means of grace. Again the radical opposition of God's work to the common ordinary day to day activities of the world. Protestant Gnosticism in embryo. Piting Creation against Providence, the spiritual against the earthly, faith against reason, theology against science, it appears as one of the grand motifs of YECism in particular and American fundamentalism in general.

Contra this misreading of the Scriptures, God speaks through history, through science, not in the same exact way as the Word is expressed in Jesus, nor the Word expressed in Scripture, nor as the word is even expressed in the Church or through preaching. Defining the relationship of the two books of God is difficult and imho is a task for the Church today that the fundamentalists and YECists in particular have abandoned for their socio-political battle against evilution. Sadly so.

...
 
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Remus

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Vance said:
2. I have shown elsewhere that the ancient Israelites, at the time these stories were first told, and then first written down, would not have viewed them as strict literal historical narrative. That is simply NOT how they told about their past. Yes, they would have considered them true and valid and believable, but not at all have insisted that they must be factually accurate. I know this is difficult for us to get our modern minds around, but in such matters they did not have our modern biases. Again, I have provided evidence for this in the past, and can do so again if requested.
What do you mean by "ancient Israelites"?
When do you believe they were first told and when they were first written down?
And please do provide this evidence again.
 
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Vance

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Remus

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Vance

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In the meantime, it is very indicative of the problem of literalism that in the other forum, I am having to debate this same issue with an agnostic who is also insisting that it must be literal, as a means of being able to dismiss the Genesis accounts altogether. His point is that it must be literal in the details, and since the details are not scientifically or historically accurate, Genesis is not valid or true. This is another danger of literalism.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier said:
No, that's a danger of atheism. Faith has no problen with literalism.

And faith has no problem with a figurative reading either, that is not the point. Not all those with full and complete faith read it literally. The point is that one of the reasons why he lost his Christian faith is his insistence on strict literalism and his inability to see it any other way.

Here is what I just posted to him in that thread:

MuAndNu,

In another thread, you mentioned that you used to be a believer, but one of the reasons why you are not now is that too much of Scripture was in conflict with what you knew to be true about our natural world. I am sure there are many in your shoes. What I am trying to do here, and more for people like you than anyone else, is to show you how Scripture is NOT in conflict with the evidence from nature. I am attempting to remove that stumbling-block so that there is at least one less reason for your disbelief. I make no bones about that.

The reason this is not a PM is that I am sure there are many more out there who believed in the past, but due to their insistence on an overly literal reading, came to see an unecessary conflict between that reading and what they believed to be true in nature. If you or anyone else would like to discuss this matter further by PM, just drop me a line.
 
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CPman2004

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You ask why YECs, and OECs to an extent also, see the first chapters of Genises as historical naritives, and you call that an presumption. I would like to now why you have the presumption that God would create via evolution. You can of couse say science, and I know you will, but I would also like to know some theological arguments for this belief. Why do you keep this presumption?
 
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Jon_

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vossler said:
I will take issue with this "presumption" you make. I don't believe the evidence from the natural world is compelling enough to conclude the universe and earth are old. I've seen more than enough "evidence" that says otherwise. However, it is not my intention to enter into a debate here of how my evidence is superior to yours and you then attempt to trump mine and we go back and forth into oblivion with no one the better off. :eek:

So this post is offered only to disqualify your presumption. :amen:

You don't believe that evidence from the natural world is compelling enough to conclude that the earth and universe are old, but Paul says that the evidence of the natural world is proof enough to condemn all men (Rom. 1:20).

The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of Theistic Evolution.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Vance

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CPman2004 said:
You ask why YECs, and OECs to an extent also, see the first chapters of Genises as historical naritives, and you call that an presumption. I would like to now why you have the presumption that God would create via evolution. You can of couse say science, and I know you will, but I would also like to know some theological arguments for this belief. Why do you keep this presumption?

But that is just it, I don't have any presumption that God would create any given way. A presumption is something you start with before considering all the evidence. A "conclusive" presumption is one you hold to regardless of what evidence you will later find out (as opposed to a rebuttable presumption).

Since I don't have a literalist presumption, I am willing to look at the text in its context and in its culture and genre. And since, in doing this, I don't believe that the Genesis accounts attempt to tell us the exact timing and methods of His miraculous creation, I am willing to accept ANY way God chose to do it. So, I then look to nature to see HOW and WHEN He did it. Whatever it tells me convincingly, I am willing to accept. Of course, I am only willing to accept it to the extent it is supported by adequate evidence.
 
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Marshall Janzen

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CPman2004 said:
I would like to now why you have the presumption that God would create via evolution.
Vance can speak for himself, but in my case, I most certainly did not have that presumption. When I started to become aware of the literary framework in Genesis 1, I was a gap theorist who opposed evolution. I ended up shifting to what I later learned is called the framework view due to studying the first chapters of Genesis.

If you set aside commentaries and other writings and really study the first two chapters of Genesis, there's a few things that jump out, or at least they did for me. The first is that there's a lot of literary beauty and craftsmanship in how Genesis 1 is arranged. The second is that Genesis 2 is contradictory if both accounts are literal history. Those were the two main factors that led me to believe that these creation accounts were not written to answer questions about historical or scientific details.

After my interpretation changed, I also had more openness to scientific ideas that I had earlier dismissed. Since I could now approach the evidence for these theories on their own merits rather than needing to disprove them for my faith to hold up, it's unsurprising that it didn't take long for me to accept evolution.

Edit: Ah, I see Vance has spoken for himself just a few minutes before I got this posted. :wave:
 
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Marshall Janzen

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Interesting. I did look a bit at the scientific evidence long before I considered anything like TE. Things like ice cores convinced me that the earth must be older than I had thought, and that's what moved me from YEC to gap theory, since that seemed like a way to have my biblical cake while eating science too (or something like that).

But at that point I was pretty sure that if I really studied either the scientific or the biblical side of things, my current view would turn out to be insufficient. So, for a while I just avoided the issue completely. Finally, it bugged me that there was a part of the Bible I was afraid to study, and that's when I prayed for God's guidance and dove into Genesis to see what I could learn.
 
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Jon_

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MercuryMJ said:
Interesting. I did look a bit at the scientific evidence long before I considered anything like TE. Things like ice cores convinced me that the earth must be older than I had thought, and that's what moved me from YEC to gap theory, since that seemed like a way to have my biblical cake while eating science too (or something like that).

But at that point I was pretty sure that if I really studied either the scientific or the biblical side of things, my current view would turn out to be insufficient. So, for a while I just avoided the issue completely. Finally, it bugged me that there was a part of the Bible I was afraid to study, and that's when I prayed for God's guidance and dove into Genesis to see what I could learn.

Barring some extremely significant scientific discoveries that completely shatter our concept of the life of the universe and earth, the only two theories I am torn between are Gap Theory and Theistic Evolution. TE makes the most sense to me at this point, given the fossil records and other geological and cosmological phenomenon. Gap Theory, like you said, is basically a way of having your cake and eating it too. I think it's much too convenient of a theory and leaves a lot of holes, especially concerning the evolution of very recent species and their ancestors.

I do believe that homo sapien sapiens are unique creatures divinely and actively created by God for a purpose, approximately 6000 years ago. It is very accurate and can be proven anthropologically that modern man has persisted for only these few thousands of years. Basic logical deductions can help us arrive at that conclusion before we even start to consider evidence.

The most important consideration to keep in mind is that science and Scripture are not at odds with each other. Scientists might be seeking to disprove Scripture, but if their conclusions prove to be true, then we should reevaluate our interpretation of Scripture according to this new evidence. A thousand years ago mankind had no reason to think that the earth was anymore than 5000 years old. There was no scientific reason to assume that the account of Genesis was illiteral. There were textual reasons, but not scientific. You could scarcely prove anything back then.

Now, in the 21st century, our understanding of the world and the cosmos has given us a much greater level of knowledge about how the earth must have formed. The fact that the universe is what, about 16.5 billion years old, tells us just how eternal God is. God created the universe, so he existed over 16.5 billion years ago. That's so long ago it's not even comprehensible. It's ludicrous. That should pay us mind to how mighty God is. To have created the universe not just static, but with a brilliant array of laws that allow it to maintain itself in near perfect harmony is amazing.

The mathematical possibility of a random planet spawning random humanoid life is something like 10 to the 121st. 10 to the 50 is regarded by mathematicians as a statistical impossibility. The chances of a probability such as that ever coming about are so ridiculously small that it is a complete waste of time and energy to even think about how ridiculously small it is. I am wasting more effort just typing these words than could ever be merited for a figure of 10 to the 50, let alone 10 to the 121.

It takes loads more faith (or perhaps insane folly) to believe that the universe was not intelligently designed than to believe it was. The sheer statistical evidence against the probability of favorable variables for life on a planet is conclusive proof enough that it is well impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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