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Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Zao is life

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Would you let us have those dozen or so references? Please?
 
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3 Resurrections

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Also, do you believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and 14 are one and the same group?

Without a doubt, the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 are one and the same group. Jewish children of faith only, raised from graves around Jerusalem that were opened by the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion, and who came from those various tribes listed (Dan and Ephraim excepted).

The 144,000 First-fruits are also in Revelation 14:14 as the "dried harvest", which the one like the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud harvested with a sickle by Himself (no angelic assistants with this First resurrection). This crowned Son of Man "reaped the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel...which "sickle" harvested the bodies of those 144,000 out of the ground that were "redeemed from the earth").

Those 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits actually went into the city of Jerusalem and stood on Mount Zion (the actual Temple site) along with Christ - literally. We know that bodily, the newly-resurrected Christ was in Jerusalem that day visiting the disciples that evening (Luke 24:33-36). And we are told that the 144,000 "followed the Lamb wherever He went", so I have no doubt that Christ and the 144,000 resurrected Mathew 27 saints actually went into the Temple location and literally stood there assembled together at that time. In a city crammed with perhaps a couple million Passover celebrants, 144,000 resurrected individuals would truly have been "seen by many".
 
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Zao is life

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Copy @3 Resurrections
You guys are talking about interesting stuff here now. All new to me.

Here we go again: How many times have I had to ask myself, "Where have I been?"

Where have I been?
 
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Zao is life

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Do we have statements in the New Testament as to Christ standing on Mount Zion/visiting the temple after His resurrection? Or is this an inference you are making after comparing scripture with scripture?
 
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DavidPT

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Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


Looking at this passage a bit closer there appears to be some things defying logic. Verse 53 indicates they came out of their graves after His resurrection, yet His resurrection doesn't even involve any of these verses. How does one explain that? Verse 54 has the centurion watching Jesus as He died, not as He arose. It would be days later when He rises, and it would be when He is in His tomb. This is a bizarre passage, meaning some of it. And why isn't it also recorded in any of the parallel accounts?
 
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Would you let us have those dozen or so references? Please?

Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.
 
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Zao is life

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"and coming out of the tomb after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Matthew wrote his gospel quite a few years later. I would think he would have known by the time he wrote his gospel. I don't see why he would need to have mentioned Christ's resurrection in the same place he mentioned those who rose after the Lord's resurrection.
 
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Zao is life

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Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.
If you mean the theme of this particular thread, it does not matter. I started the thread, and my job is done. The theme is dealt with. I was showing that the New Testament does not teach the concept of a "spiritual resurrection" because each and every verse in the N.T that talks about the resurrection is unambiguously talking about the resurrection of the body.

So you can go ahead. The subject has already moved on from the OP
 
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Zao is life

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Sure, can do. But maybe I'd better put them in a post dedicated to that theme so as not to derail the theme of this particular post.
Obviously, if you want to start a new thread about it, I don't mind. But I also don't mind if you post that here. It's up to you.
 
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DavidPT

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Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened
; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


I guess it could mean that everything I have underlined involves that particular day, and what I don't have underlined is meaning days later because of what took place during what I have underlined. IOW, the events of that day only caused the graves to be opened at that time. Does that then mean no one bothered to close the graves back up from the time this happened until they arose days later? Apparently so.
 
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Zao is life

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Makes me think of something Josephus wrote about the A.D 66-70 period:

CHARIOTS AND TROOPS OF SOLDIERS IN THEIR ARMOUR WERE SEEN RUNNING ABOUT AMONG THE CLOUDS, AND SURROUNDING CITIES.

QUOTE (from Josephus)
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
UNQUOTE
 
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Zao is life

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Ever heard of a "Markan Sandwich"? I noticed them long ago and I've found them all over biblical scripture: @DavidPT I laughed when I heard that scholars have been patting themselves on the backs because they discovered it in Mark's gospel. Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs.. the books of the prophets are full of Markan Sandwiches, i.e talking about a subject, interrupting the main subject with another subject, then returning to the first subject. I have a strong suspicion that Luke 21:20-24 is another Markan Sandwich.

It's a very, very, very common style in biblical scripture. @DavidPT Matthew does not have to write, "Oh, by the way, this took place a few days after this, and this a few days before that". He was familiar with biblical scripture and the way he wrote it would have been quite natural to him and his generation would not have thought it strange and asked questions like, "Oh, really? How many days later did the resurrection take place after the graves were opened?"

The graves may have been opened with the earthquake, but maybe they were not visible. Maybe they were tombs away from the city.

Maybe 1. Maybe 2. Maybe 3...

It's not necessary to have the finer details.
 
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grafted branch

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Obviously, if you want to start a new thread about it, I don't mind. But I also don't mind if you post that here. It's up to you.
While we’re waiting for 3R to make a new tread I’ll give a brief explanation of why I think the 144,000 went to heaven shortly after they were resurrected.

In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In John 20:27 Thomas can thrust his hand into Jesus’s side. Jesus would’ve had to ascend to the Father and descend back to earth sometime in between these two events.

Some people interpret the word “touch” in John 20:17 as “cling to”, in other words Mary was not allowed to prevent Jesus from going. But in Luke 24:29 they were able to constrain Jesus. So there can be no doubt that Jesus did ascend to the Father and descend back to earth at some point.

The 144,000 follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. There is no evidence of anyone else ascending in Acts 1:9 except Jesus. So I conclude that they went to heaven shortly after their resurrection.

3R has done a lot of research on this and does see things differently than me but I just thought I would throw my two cents in for what it’s worth.
 
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So you can go ahead. The subject has already moved on from the OP

Okay, will do. Ask and ye shall receive...

So, here's kind of a bare-bones list of most (not all) of the texts that refer to the identity and activity of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected Jewish saints. Matthew is not the only one who wrote about them or predicted their coming.

Leviticus 23:10-12 - The "Sheaf Handful" of barley First-fruits, offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish. This was a picture foreshadowing "Christ the First-fruits" as the Passover Lamb and the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected that day by Christ.

Psalms 68:18-20 - The "multitude of captives" which would be led by the ascending Christ, and be received as "gifts for men". This text attributes to God the power of bringing about "the exodus from death".

Matthew 9:37-38 - The "laborers" sent into the harvest. In Christ's days, the "fields" were already white, and ripe for "harvesting". Christ told the disciples to pray the Lord of the harvest to "send forth laborers" into that harvest. When the group of Matthew 27:52-53 saints were raised and given as "gifts to men" (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers), this was an answer to that prayer, and a real benefit to the disciples' evangelistic efforts in those days. This resurrected group would have had evangelistic capabilities far beyond that of normal living believers hampered by weakness, aging bodies, sickness, death, sinful temptations, dependent children, wives' and husbands' needs, etc.

Matthew 24:24 - The "elect" which could not be deceived. Though intense deception would be rife in those days surrounding the "Great Tribulation", with "false Christs" and "false prophets" leading many astray, it wasn't even possible for these resurrected "elect" saints in a state of incorruptibility to be deceived by this.

Ephesians 4:8-13 - The "multitude of captives" led out of the grave by the ascending Christ, and given as "gifts for men" in those first-century days. They would act in the roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to help build up the early church, until they all came into the state of a "perfected man".

Hebrews 12:22-23 - The "spirits of just men made perfect". These perfected, just men in the early church had been "perfected" in the same sense that Jesus was "made perfect" in His bodily-resurrected state (Hebrews 5:9). These "perfected", just men were also called "the assembly of the first-born", and the "myriads of messengers" (of the resurrected human variety) who were "enrolled in heaven" - but who had not bodily arrived there yet.

Hebrews 13:1 - The "strangers" or "messengers" entertained unawares by the early church ("messengers" of the human variety). These "strangers" 3 John 1:5-7 said were going forth unto the Gentiles, taking nothing from them for their ministry. One of the criteria for admitting widows into the assembly for financial support was if they had entertained these "strangers" in their home. Gaius was commended in the church by these "strangers" for his charity in supporting their mission.

Hebrews 12:1 - The "cloud of witnesses" surrounding the early church. This was a great number of witnesses bodily present in the assemblies, similar to the other faithful ones who had also died and had just been listed in the "Hall of Faith". These others had not been "made perfect" yet, but would receive the "better resurrection" along with the Hebrews believers who would be "made perfect" along with them, just like the "cloud of witnesses" who had already been perfected with a bodily resurrection.

Romans 8:23 - The "First-fruits of the Spirit". This is not the "fruit of the Spirit". Paul said the church had these "First-fruits" among them (who came from the 144,000 First-fruits group). These "First-fruits" were also patiently waiting along with the rest of the believers for Christ's return. This would bring about the hoped-for redemption of the rest of the believers' bodies in the next bodily resurrection event, when the First-fruits would join them in meeting the Lord together in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 - The "alive and remaining" saints. These saints had already been made alive by a resurrection process, (like Lazarus and Dorcas and the 144,000 First-fruits), but Paul said they had "remained" on earth until that time in a sort of sealed, reserved status. They were waiting on the next, second resurrection event, when they would together meet the Lord in the air with the other newly-resurrected saints. Only resurrected individuals would take part in this "rapture" - there would be no so-called "translated" living believers included, since that would contradict Hebrews 9:27 where it is "appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment."

John 5:25 - The "hour is coming" when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. Jesus told the Jews that "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." In those days, the disciples and Christ were bodily raising people from the dead (the "now is" part of His statement). Yet an hour was coming in which the dead would live after hearing the voice of the Son of God (the Matthew 27 resurrected saints). Yet as marvelous as that was, there would be another hour coming in which ALL of the dead in the graves (John 5:28-29) would hear the voice of the Son of God - not just the many righteous Matthew 27 saints. Hymeneus and Philetus' heresy mistook this past, "first resurrection" of the Matthew 27 saints as being the only bodily resurrection that would ever take place.

Matthew 20:16 - "The last shall be first, and the first last". In the parable about the servants which served a full day compared to those who served only an hour, they all received the same reward for their service. This was a parable about the resurrection. No matter what point of history, or how rigorously God's servants were tasked to serve Him, and for whatever varying lengths of time, they all would receive the same reward of a bodily resurrection. The "first" group to be resurrected (the Matthew 27 saints) would not get to heaven first. They would have to wait and "remain" on the earth until the other dead saints in the grave had been raised from the dead. Then and only then would they be caught up, and together "meet the Lord in the air". The "last" to rise from the dead would be the "first" to be raptured, and the "first" to be resurrected would be the "last" to be caught up.

Luke 18:6-8 - The "elect" begging for vengeance. In this context about the unjust judge parable, Christ was comparing it to the patient waiting of those martyred saints who were persistently begging God for vengeance for their shed blood. Christ said He was going to avenge them "speedily". We see this same martyred group of souls again under the altar in ...

Revelation 6:9-11 - The martyred souls under the altar. Martyred for the word of God, these souls were begging God's vengeance for their shed blood. White robes (representing the righteousness of a perfected, resurrected body) were given to each one of them (to the Matthew 27:52-53 saints). They were then told to "rest for a little season" (when Satan was loosed for his "little season" starting in AD 33 at the end of the millennium) until the rest of their brethren who were about to be martyred, just as they were, had been accomplished. Heavy persecution of the church by the Jewish leadership under Saul started then, on the very day of Stephen's martyrdom, with sporadic outbreaks all during those first-century years.

Revelation 7:2-8 - The sealing of the 144,000 from Jewish tribes. This was a literal as well as a symbolic number of Jewish tribal members raised from those opened graves around Jerusalem in AD 33. These were sealed by the living God as a sign that they had a protected, reserved status during the coming days of tribulation for that first-century generation.

Revelation 12:17 - The "remnant of the woman's Seed". Since the Dragon's persecution of the early church was temporarily swallowed up with Paul's remarkable conversion, in great anger, Satan went instead to make war during his "little season" with the remnant of the woman's Seed (Christ the "Seed"). These were the ones keeping the commandments of God and that had the testimony of Jesus to spread with their evangelism. This word "remnant" crops up again several times in reference to the Matthew 27 saints.

Revelation 11:13 - The righteous "remnant" giving glory to God in Jerusalem. Inside Jerusalem during this sixth trumpet judgment, there was a "remnant" which glorified God for His judgments taking place in the city at that time. The others were not repenting of their wicked actions, but this righteous "remnant" was glorifying God for seeing His judgments take place within the city.

Revelation 14:1-5 - The 144,000 First-fruits described in detail. "Virgins", since there is no marriage in the resurrected state. "Not defiled by women", since the cult of "Jezebel" and the sensual "doctrine of Balaam" was corrupting many in the church in those days - but not these resurrected Matthew 27 First-fruits resurrected saints. "Redeemed from the earth" because these Matthew 27 saints had received the "redemption of the body" already by being raised out of the ground from those graves around Jerusalem. "No guile in their mouth" and "without fault before the throne of God" because resurrected saints cannot possibly utter a lie, and are in a state of sinless perfection. The "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb" because they were part of the "First resurrection" event along with "Christ the First-fruits". The Matthew 27 saints "followed the Lamb" everywhere He went on earth during those 40 days before He finally ascended in Acts 1:9 - leaving them to "remain" on the earth for a "little season".

Revelation 14:14 - The "dried harvest" of the earth, reaped by the ascended Christ. The one sitting on a cloud like the Son of Man with a single crown on His head (of His newly-ordained high priesthood) held a sharp sickle with which He reaped the dried harvest of the earth. No angels assisted with this "harvest" of the earth (tes ges - the land of Israel). Christ alone reaped this harvest, as the ascending Christ alone brought those Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of their Jerusalem graves on His resurrection day.

Revelation 14:10 - The "holy messengers" along with the Lamb (of the human variety of messengers). Both the Lamb and these "messengers" were directly in the presence of those being tormented with fire and brimstone. The Lake of Fire (the "Second Death") being the "furnace of fire" in the city of Jerusalem which God used to destroy the city and the temple down to the ground for the second time. The "remnant" of the sealed 144,000 present within Jerusalem during its last state could not be hurt in any way by the "Second Death" conditions within the disintegrating city. Whether by starvation, plague, fire, sword, or demonic oppression, they were immune to being hurt by any of these things. God mercifully used these indestructible evangelists to offer the gospel to those within Jerusalem up to the very last minute.

Revelation 20:4-6 - The "remnant of the dead" called the "First resurrection". During the faithful saints' natural lifetime on earth at varying times of the millennium years, some had been martyred (like the prophets Jezebel slew); some had served faithfully until death and died naturally (like Daniel); and some had not given homage to the Beast in any way (like those Antiochus Epiphanes slew for being faithful to the Mosaic law). All these saints in their turn had demonstrated their faith in various ways at some point of "living and reigning with Christ" during those literal thousand years of the millennium (from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33).

But the comparatively small portion of all these dead saints, the ones called "the remnant of the dead" (aka the "First resurrection"), did not come to life again in that resurrection until the millennium was finished. This means the millennium "expired" when the AD 33 "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27 First-fruits had occurred. It had been a literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system, which was phased out in AD 33 when Christ became the "chief cornerstone" of the temple not made with hands.

An infuriated Satan was then loosed at that point from his millennial chain, and went out to do battle with the indestructible "remnant of the Woman's Seed" - the Matthew 27 saints which had "remained" on the earth. This is why John warned the believers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" of being loosed and coming down to the earth in great wrath had already begun back then. But neither Satan's wrath nor the "Second Death" / Lake of Fire conditions in Jerusalem had any power over this sealed "remnant of the dead". They had a task to accomplish which no other group had ever been given. This is why the 144,000 were the only ones who could "learn that song", because their experience was a unique one in all of human history.

Revelation 20:9 - The "camp of the saints" inside Jerusalem, the "beloved city". The Devil was going to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth (the "four corners" of the land of Israel - Ezekiel 7:2) to gather them to battle. These deceived nations would come to simultaneously surround both the "camp of the saints" and the city of Jerusalem with the righteous "remnant" of the saints inside it, who were carrying out their evangelistic task up until the last minute.

Revelation 15:8 - The first permitted entry of resurrected mankind into heaven's temple. When the last of the 7 trumpets had been fulfilled, for the first time ever, resurrected mankind was allowed access into heaven's temple. Until that time, Christ had been the only one to be able to stand in God's presence in a resurrected human form as the "First-born" and the "First-begotten". He was the first ascended one to make the way possible for all the rest of His siblings to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". This was when the Matthew 27:52-53, resurrected 144,000 First-fruits saints would finally receive their well-earned reward for their "little season" of faithful service.
 
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Timtofly

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You know Amil do not even accept most of what Revelation 20 is about, just that it is a place holder of words, but really no information at all.
 
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Timtofly

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Of course it does the way Revelation 20:4-6 puts it. We have not even physically died nor have been physically ressurected.

The verse declares those who have had part in the first resurrection.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The reason the church has power over the second death is the second birth. Those who accept the second birth technically never taste death ever, but convincing people of that is a totally different animal.

You all, both Premil and Amil, are so set in theology and biased, any attempt to convince one that physical death is not death at all, not even sleep, seems a waste of time. It is the soul exchanging bodies immediately. It is actually being more alive than one is now in our condition. Since even though spiritually born into the family of God, we carry Adam's dead flesh and blood.

The NOSAS camp think one can spiritually die out of God's family. That is the second death, the LOF they burden themselves with. They would have to be so reprobate in their thinking that their names will be stricken from the Lamb's book of life and they will be sealed with the mark of the beast.

So the church is not affected by the second death because of the second birth, which no one can actually die out of. Any one reprobate, never wanted the second birth to begin with.

Those in Revelation 20:4 are not the church glorified. They physically did die, their head was chopped off. They did not immediately enter their new physical bodies, unless an angel literally transported them through time to that physical resurrection. Their souls obviously did not join the church in Paradise and glorified. They only had a physical resurrection as a group one time. Only that physical resurrection in Revelation 20:4 can apply to those certain souls, because it was a physical resurrection and not the second birth.

That is why Amil are wrong in conflating this future resurrection with the second birth of the Atonement of The Cross and Christ’s resurrection.
 
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Timtofly

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Those beheaded after the Second Coming have not been spiritually born from above. Amil are just as confused, because they do not put these people dying after the Second Coming. According to Amil, literally no one can physically die after the Second Coming. All death takes place immediately before or at the Second Coming. There is no after the Second Coming.

Amil will say that is only because premill are biased and Revelation 20:4 actually happened at the Cross in the first century, not after the Second Coming. Amil are biased and see nothing happening after the Second Coming relating to death, even though the GWT is after, but that is not even a resurrection. Yet contrary to their bias, they claim this is the last resurrection, even though it is after the Second Coming and called the second death.
 
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klutedavid

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That is an enormous amount of work. You are a driven man.

Alas, I am already seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

I care not for interpretations or viewpoints in eschatology.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes, it definitely was. I'm with you on this one. That was a "remnant of the dead" which came to life again at that time, and was called "the First Resurrection".
How many besides John the Baptist lost their heads? So John the Baptist is still alive on earth today, or did he leave after 1000 years?
 
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Timtofly

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Matthew 27's resurrection at the Cross was the Last Day resurrection of all OT redeemed. They left Abraham's bosom and ascended to heaven with Christ on Sunday.

All the redeemed left their graves that day in physical bodies. In fact, permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Not glorified, because glorification happens at the Second Coming when both the OT and NT meet in midair and are glorified at the same time.

So any verses in the OT or Gospels concerning the Last Day resurrection, was fulfilled at the Cross. No more Last Day resurrections ever, because none of the epistles to the churches talked about a last day resurrection but a rapture and meeting Christ in the air event. The dead in Christ rising first is an ongoing phenomenon, because no one after the Cross could even taste death, much less be resurrected from it. Now those in Revelation 20:4 are beheaded after the Second Coming. They physically die and are physically resurrected later. But that was the first day of the millennium, not a last day resurrection.

Of course after 1991 years, the majority of the church is already present in Paradise, and waiting for the rest of us still alive on earth to be changed.
 
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