Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

DavidPT said:

I'm seriously thinking about putting you on ignore permanently. I don't know yet. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. And if I do, it's not because of your Amil theology, but because of things you say to me at times like you do in this post. Some of the keywords are--deliberately, deceitful, underhand tactics---that that is supposed to be describing me. Wow.

So, I'm supposed to apologize for something I haven't even done, that being that I allegedly have deliberately been misrepresenting Amil, thus being deceitful? Guess what? I'm not too proud to apologize for something that I have actually done if it warrants an apology, but no way am I going to apologize for something I haven't done, because that would imply I'm admitting I did what I'm being falsely charged with. That would be like someone being accused of stealing money from someone even though they did no such thing whatsoever, then the accuser saying they will forget about the incident, as if it never happened, if they simply apologize for what they did. For what they did? What did they do? They did not steal the money. They are supposed to apologize for not stealing the money???

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I will present some evidence how you have deliberately misrepresented Amil, despite knowing what we really believe. My refutations are also attached.

My main point had to do with Revelation 12:17, and since that appears to be spanning from the time of the ascension until the time of the 2nd coming, and that most of this 2000 years that this covers, Amil has that involving the thousand years, this adds up to that Amil has satan making war with the church when he is locked up in the pit.

Why would satan be waging war with anyone while he is depicted as shut up in a prison??

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there is nowhere in all of Revelation 12 where there is a time satan can be in the pit. So why do many still insist satan is bound in the pit in this age, regardless that Scripture, such as Revelation 9 and 12 prove otherwise?

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James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Where exactly is the devil going to flee to if he is supposed to be locked away in the pit at the time? Back to the pit he escaped from during Amil's version of the thousand years?

… How does satan manage to cast others into a prison while he himself is in a prison at the time

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I don't see it making sense that while satan is depicted as locked up in the pit, that he is also waging war on the church or anyone for that matter. Therefore, Amils are wrong to place the thousand years in this age.

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Satan functions in a spiritual prison which allows him to operate on the earth, albeit under careful spiritual restraint. He’s like a dog on a chain.

The fact that the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, the false prophet in Revelation 13:11 and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 are all released from their spiritual restraint in the abyss before the second coming for a little season shows that they were obviously placed there previously. Multiple NT Scripture shows the First Advent as the time of subjugation for the demonic realm.

You give lip service to the fact the abyss is a spiritual prison. That is why Satan can still function on this earth and do his evil against those who align with him. The reality is, prisoners can still do harm in a prison. A fierce dog on a chain can still do harm to those who get close to it.

There are multiple New Testament Scriptures to support the Amil position and the current binding of Satan. You must sidestep all these to sustain your own argument. Premil on the other hand has zero corroboration for its theory. That is damning for the doctrine. Scripture proves Satan was spiritually bound in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22), negate Premil. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Revelation 9 also describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season.

As every Amil has told you countless times, you are deliberately misrepresenting Amil. That is deceitful! You obviously cannot deal with what we really believe or examine our beliefs in the light of our true position. This battle has been won a long time ago online. Many have seen the error of your position. The support you receive is totally negligible today compared to a few years ago. That is a powerful testimony as to how lame and unconvincing your arguments are.

I think your aim is to provoke Amils because this is getting old. How can we respect this or take anything you say serious?

Eric has corrected you many times and you have refused to apologize for your continuous misrepresentations. He has exposed your underhand tactics.

Per Amil apparently satan can pretty much do everything he can do when he is loosed while he is bound. Per Amil he can deceive nations while he is bound and that he can wage war while he is bound, and so can he when he is loosed. Per Amil he can be walking about, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, while he is bound and also be able to do that when he is loosed.

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Spiritual binding is speaking about putting him in spiritual chains (Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22). We are looking at spiritual restraint. Satan is currently in a spiritual prison since the first resurrection until Satan’s little season (see Revelation 9 and Revelation 20). So is his minions including the beast. This corresponds with Satan being cast out of heaven with his minions toward earth (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:5-11).

Another deliberate and malicious misrepresentation of Amil - and you know it. If you would care to objectively study the OT and the NT you will see that a mammoth change occurred after the first resurrection that opened up the Gospel to the nations. The darkness was dispelled and they were no longer without excuse.

Apparently, in your mind, if one thing is not literal then neither is anything else that is involved.

Using this same logic.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Since the white horse is not literally meaning a flesh and blood horse, then neither is heaven literal here, nor is the one sitting upon the white horse a literal being.

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When has any Amil ever said this? Never! You know that! Amillennialists do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

As I have said countless times: you have no grasp of Amil yet (more than any other Premil) you try to constantly talk on its behalf (as if you are some authority) and always end up misrepresenting it.

How about asking questions? You don't because you would discover the truth. Misrepresenting Amil seems to be more appealing to you.

If you kept to the facts your argument would swiftly crumble.

DavidPT said:

The believer's physical resurrection can't be the first resurrection, since Christ's resurrection already preceded it, is what you argue. In that case neither can the believer's spirititual resurrection be the first resurrection, since Christ's resurrection already preceded it. What now?

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If you would just listen instead of talk then you would grasp what Amils actually believe. What frustrates them more than anything over the years is that we can explain something 200 times and you still do not grasp what they are telling you, or, you are intentionally misrepresenting Amil. Whichever, it is, you do not get what Amils hold on this. This has all been explained to you until we are blue in the face. So, the breakdown is on your behalf. You chose what you are functioning in.

Not so. Never. You keep claiming this but refuse to address the Scriptures that forbid this error. You populate your so-called future millennium with countless mortal wicked. But the Bible forbids that. You have billions marrying, procreating and dying and crying, when Scripture forbids. It will never happen. I suspect you know that.

Revelation 20:6 says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

The first resurrection is shown elsewhere throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection (Acts 26:23, Colossians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 15:20 and Revelation 1:5). The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death –
eternal wrath.

sovereigngrace said:

You populate your so-called future millennium with countless mortal wicked. But the Bible forbids that. You have billions marrying, procreating and dying and crying, when Scripture forbids. It will never happen. I suspect you know that.

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You accuse those who believe in a literal thousand year reign of King Jesus, of misrepresentation?
I sure that none of us have ever even implied there will be any ungodly people in the Millennium. It will be a fantastic time of peaceful living, as everyone lives out their lives in peace and prosperity. No one will be immortal yet, but life will be much longer. Isaiah 65:20

ONLY AFTER the Millennium, will Satan be released, Revelation 20:7 and then, he will seduce many. They will get instantly cremated and Satan also will never again be ably to deceive anyone.

You, SG; need to apologize to us for your crude and rude untruths about the future Millennium.

keras said:

You accuse those who believe in a literal thousand year reign of King Jesus, of misrepresentation?
I sure that none of us have ever even implied there will be any ungodly people in the Millennium. It will be a fantastic time of peaceful living, as everyone lives out their lives in peace and prosperity. No one will be immortal yet, but life will be much longer. Isaiah 65:20

ONLY AFTER the Millennium, will Satan be released, Revelation 20:7 and then, he will seduce many. They will get instantly cremated and Satan also will never again be ably to deceive anyone.

You, SG; need to apologize to us for your crude and rude untruths about the future Millennium.

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This is absolute nonsense Keras. SG , SJ , JC and the NT have nothing to apologize for.

keras said:

You accuse those who believe in a literal thousand year reign of King Jesus, of misrepresentation?
I sure that none of us have ever even implied there will be any ungodly people in the Millennium. It will be a fantastic time of peaceful living, as everyone lives out their lives in peace and prosperity. No one will be immortal yet, but life will be much longer. Isaiah 65:20

ONLY AFTER the Millennium, will Satan be released, Revelation 20:7 and then, he will seduce many. They will get instantly cremated and Satan also will never again be ably to deceive anyone.

You, SG; need to apologize to us for your crude and rude untruths about the future Millennium.

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Please do not give me that. Of course, that is the picture Premillennialists want to portray. But the reality is far from that. Sin, sickness, decay, corruption, war and terror, Satan and his demons all continue in your age to come. Billions of rebels against God overrun your millennium. Hardly the perfect age of Aquarius that you portray.

jeffweedaman said:

This is absolute nonsense Keras. SG , SJ , JC and the NT have nothing to apologize for.

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We will all stand before God in Judgment.
Those who have twisted the scriptures to suit their ideas, must answer for it.

Isaiah 2:1-5; Isaiah 65:18-25 and Zechariah 14:16-21 all describe the Millennium period. To make those prophesies mean that the world will be just the same as it is now, is an outright lie.

sovereigngrace said:

Please do not give me that. Of course, that is the picture Premillennialists want to portray. But the reality is far from that. Sin, sickness, decay, corruption, war and terror, Satan and his demons all continue in your age to come. Billions of rebels against God overrun your millennium. Hardly the perfect age of Aquarius that you portray.

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Why can't you acknowledge that there is a difference between the millennium and satan's little season? The perfect age of Aquarius, as you put it, Premils are applying that to the millenium since there won't be any of what you just brought up happening during that period of time.

sickness, decay, corruption, war and terror--that you mentioned, explain how that allegedly happens during a future millennium. You used to be Premil, or were you a Premil that understood zero about that view at the time? Did your future millennium involve any of that when you were Premil?

DavidPT said:

Why can't you acknowledge that there is a difference between the millennium and satan's little season? The perfect age of Aquarius, as you put it, Premils are applying that to the millenium since there won't be any of what you just brought up happening during that period of time.

sickness, decay, corruption, war and terror--that you mentioned, explain how that allegedly happens during a future millennium. You used to be Premil, or were you a Premil that understood zero about that view at the time? Did your future millennium involve any of that when you were Premil?

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Of course it involves all this. There you have mortals you have sin and sickness, dying and crying, decadence and decay. You force billions of mortals into your supposed future millennium. Why not be straight and honest with the reader?

DavidPT said:

I mainly think that some of it is, thus not all of it is, and the part that is, is involving the 42 month reign of the beast. Amils might disagree, but no one is being warred against since the cross or the ascension, by the beast and false prophet. That doesn't happen until in the end of this age and that I can't see 42 months symbolizing a long time period such as 2000 years.

You apparently already agree with the following, and apparently Amils don't because of their doctrinal bias, that satan would not be waging war with anyone while he is in the pit. If Revelation 12:17 is spanning the past 2000 years, where I agree that it does, per Amil this would mean Revelation 12:17 is parallelling the thousand years when satan is in the pit. This is not a reasonable conclusion to arrive at, therefore the thousand years can't be pertaining to this age.

The only way out of this for Amil is that Revelation 12:17 isn't meaning the past 2000 years, that it is future instead, that it is meaning satan's little season. Except Amils are not going to agree with that, which means they have to conclude that satan is waging war during the entire thousand years when he is locked up in the pit.

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You continue to insist that Satan can't wage war against anyone while in the pit and, yet, you have no explanation whatsoever for why Satan is able to make war against the saints without the beast for almost 2,000 years so far. Why would he have any need for the beast to help make war with the saints in the future when he has already supposedly been doing it himself without the beast for almost 2,000 years?

DavidPT said:

My main point had to do with Revelation 12:17, and since that appears to be spanning from the time of the ascension until the time of the 2nd coming, and that most of this 2000 years that this covers, Amil has that involving the thousand years, this adds up to that Amil has satan making war with the church when he is locked up in the pit.

Why would satan be waging war with anyone while he is depicted as shut up in a prison?

A lot of Premils, so not all Premils then, tend to think all of Revelation 12:12-17 is future still, not something that began 2000 years ago. I don't tend to agree with that myself. To me it makes better sense that satan is kicked out of heaven around the time of the ascension.

Obviously, before he is kicked out of heaven he is not bound yet. His binding can only be meaning a time after he has been kicked out of heaven.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This is what he does first. None of this is depicting someone that is locked up in a prison, therefore, as of this verse satan is not in the pit yet. And if one looks at the final 3 verses in Revelation 12, none of those are depicting someone that is locked up in a prison either. Yet, satan has to be cast into the pit eventually, otherwise we were misled in Revelation 20:1-3. The following is when he is cast into the pit---and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ----not meaning during any of that though, but at the end of that, that is where the thousand year binding fits since it can't fit anywhere else in that chapter.

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As long as you believe that Satan's binding results in him being completely incapacitated, you're just not going to get it. His binding and him being cast out of heaven are directly related. Why would he have been kicked out of heaven but not bound at that time? I don't believe that makes any sense. And you seem to continue to forget that it says he was bound from deceiving the nations (we obviously disagree on what that means) and not bound from making war with the church.

Spiritual Jew said:

As long as you believe that Satan's binding results in him being completely incapacitated,

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Of course this is the case. Revelation 20:3 is crystal clear. ....He threw Satan into the abyss, shutting and sealing it over him.....

Church doctrine is that Satan can only deceive those who allow him to.
Satan is roaming around looking for people who knowingly choose to do wrong things.

SG; you often use the phase; 'It makes no sense'.
I put it to you: The AMill belief is totally senseless.

DavidPT said:

All I'm basically doing most of the time is coming to the logical conclusion if assuming their view. I'm not sure how that could somehow mean misrepresenting their view? If Revelation 12:12-17 spans at least 2000 years, and that Amils agree that it does, and the fact Amils also have this same 2000 years involving the thousand years, how could that not mean they have satan warring with the church while he is in the pit?

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But, you falsely represent Amil by assuming that our understanding of him being bound in the pit is the same as yours. It's not. So, based on OUR understanding of his binding, the supposed problem that you think you're exposing in our view is not a problem at all. It would only be a problem if we agreed with your understanding of his binding.

I don't see it making sense that while satan is depicted as locked up in the pit, that he is also waging war on the church or anyone for that matter.

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Of course you don't because of how you think his binding results in him being completely incapacitated. We don't share that perspective, so all you're really doing is pointing out how Amil can't work with the Premil understanding of his binding. Well, no kidding! There's no need to point that out since everyone already knows that. Imagine me repeatedly pointing out that Premil can't work according to the Amil understanding of Satan's binding. It'd be a waste of time, right?

Therefore, Amils are wrong to place the thousand years in this age. And I do not see it misrepresenting their view by pointing out that Amils are wrong to place the thousand years during this age. That's an opinion, not a misrepresentation of anything.

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The misrepresentation is because of you implying that our understanding of his binding is the same as yours. So, you give the impression that you're saying Amils are contradicting themselves by claiming that Satan is somehow making war with the saints while at the same time being completely incapacitated.

DavidPT said:

LOL. For example, I have heard Amils, you in particular, saying of Premils, that since Premils have unsaved survivors remaining after the 2nd coming, Premils therefore have the unsaved inheriting the kingdom of God. Anyone reading Revelation 20:9-11 though and then seeing that most, if not all of these unsaved survivors, that they are devoured by fire from God out of heaven in the end, that does not remotely add up to them inheriting anything other than being cast into the LOF. Being cast into the LOF is not remotely the same thing as inheriting the kingdom of God.

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Please explain how it makes sense for anyone to survive, but not inherit the kingdom of God at Christ's return. In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus portrays all people being separated into two groups and then standing before Him for judgment. One group inherits the eternal kingdom of God at that time and the other is cast into everlasting fire. Where do these supposed unsaved survivors fit into that? Where are they while what is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 is happening?

Why is it ok for Amils to speak on behalf of Premils in that manner, but the manner in which I might argue something, it is meaning I'm deliberately misrepresenting Amil, thus I'm being deceitful by doing so? Some of you don't play fair, and I'm not the only person around here who has noticed that.

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There is no question that you have misrepresented Amil many times. I'm not personally going to judge for certain whether you do it on purpose or not. But, I will say, since you've done it so many times, that I can't help but wonder if you do it on purpose even though I don't think you do. I think you are either unable to grasp some of the things that we believe for some reason or you just don't want to put in the effort to understand it.

keras said:

Of course this is the case. Revelation 20:3 is crystal clear. ....He threw Satan into the abyss, shutting and sealing it over him.....

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LOL. Other parts of Revelation are crystal clear that the beast has seven heads and ten horns. So, that makes it a literal beast then? If you would pay closer attention you should see that it's depicting a dragon being thrown into a prison and being chained up. There's nothing literal about it. The figurative dragon being chained up in a pit/prison figuratively represents Satan's binding. But, you go ahead and believe that Satan, a spirit being, can somehow be literally bound with a literal chain if you want.

Church doctrine is that Satan can only deceive those who allow him to.
Satan is roaming around looking for people who knowingly choose to do wrong things.

SG; you often use the phase; 'It makes no sense'.
I put it to you: The AMill belief is totally senseless.

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I honestly couldn't care less if it makes sense to you or not.

DavidPT said:

Which comes first? The last trump or the GWTJ? What happens at the last trump? The saved are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

I'm pretty certain that change can't happen to anyone but the saved. I'm pretty certain that would mean their names are written in the book of life. I'm pretty certain they wouldn't need to find out at the GWTJ that their names are written in it since they will already be in glorified bodies before the GWTJ takes place, thus it would already be obvious to them that their names are written in it.

Until Revelation 19:21 is fulfilled first, where that is obviously meaning after the last trump has already sounded, the GWTJ can't take place in the meantime, even if the GWTJ takes place the same day Christ returns.

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Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever..... 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet, which is obviously the last of the seven trumpets, signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Aren't the dead judged at the GWTJ as portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15? They clearly are, right? So, doesn't that place the timing of the GWTJ around the time of the seventh and last trumpet? I believe so.

keras said:

You accuse those who believe in a literal thousand year reign of King Jesus, of misrepresentation?
I sure that none of us have ever even implied there will be any ungodly people in the Millennium. It will be a fantastic time of peaceful living, as everyone lives out their lives in peace and prosperity. No one will be immortal yet, but life will be much longer. Isaiah 65:20

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It seems that a vast majority of Premils see Zechariah 14 as referring to the "literal thousand year reign of King Jesus" that you mentioned. In Zechariah 14:16-19 it talks about punishment for those who refuse to go up to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. Wouldn't any of those who refuse to do that be considered ungodly people? Of course they would. So, how exactly does saying that Premils believe at least some ungodly people will be around during the Millennium misrepresent Premil, generally speaking?

ONLY AFTER the Millennium, will Satan be released, Revelation 20:7 and then, he will seduce many. They will get instantly cremated and Satan also will never again be ably to deceive anyone.

You, SG; need to apologize to us for your crude and rude untruths about the future Millennium.

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Just because he may have misrepresented your particular view, but not the view of the vast majority of Premils, does not mean he has anything to apologize for. He doesn't need to cater to your particular view every time he makes statements about the Premil view. Everyone understands that when someone makes a statement about Amil they are talking about what most Amils believe since not all Amils agree on everything. It's the same thing for when someone says something about Premil since not all Premils agree on everything.

jeffweedaman said:

This is absolute nonsense Keras. SG , SJ , JC and the NT have nothing to apologize for.

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Absolutely agree. He expects us to apologize if we say something about Premil that doesn't represent his unique version of Premil. I don't think so. We should be able to make statements about Premil in general in regards to what most Premils believe without having to apologize for misrepresenting the views of people with fringe beliefs like he has. Such as his belief that 1 Cor 15:50-56 and Rev 20:11-15 are referring to the same event, which no other Premils agree with him on.

Spiritual Jew said:

Absolutely agree. He expects us to apologize if we say something about Premil that doesn't represent his unique version of Premil. I don't think so. We should be able to make statements about Premil in general in regards to what most Premils believe without having to apologize for misrepresenting the views of people with fringe beliefs like he has. Such as his belief that 1 Cor 15:50-56 and Rev 20:11-15 are referring to the same event, which no other Premils agree with him on.

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Even I, though I'm a Premil, fully agree that none of you have anything to apologize for in regards to any of that. You have a right to interpret the meaning of the thousand years how ever you see fit, just like Premils have that same right. And if one doesn't agree with one's interpretation, that person has a right to dispute it. This has been what has been getting me into bit of trouble that I don't feel I deserve. That because I am disputing one's interpretation, I am then deliberately misrepresenting that side's view, thus being deceitful by doing so, thus underhanded tactics on my part.

Maybe I just go about some things differently is all. Maybe one isn't fully grasping my thought processes and I how I, not someone else instead, goes about reasoning through some of these things. If we were having these discussions in person, I guarantee you that you all would be understanding my thought processes then, because I would be able to adequately explain it to you. That doesn't mean you would be agreeing with me, it just means that you would fully understand that I'm not deliberately doing anything, such as misrepresenting one's view.

But in a setting like this I don't want to have to do all of that every time. Too much typing involved, way too tedious for someone like me who is a slow typer, can't stand typing to begin with, not to mention, arthritis runs in my family, and me being someone who can express my thoughts in person better than I can in writing.

DavidPT said:

Even I, though I'm a Premil, fully agree that none of you have anything to apologize for in regards to any of that. You have a right to interpret the meaning of the thousand years how ever you see fit, just like Premils have that same right. And if one doesn't agree with one's interpretation, that person has a right to dispute it. This has been what has been getting me into bit of trouble that I don't feel I deserve. That because I am disputing one's interpretation, I am then deliberately misrepresenting that side's view, thus being deceitful by doing so, thus underhanded tactics on my part.

Maybe I just go about some things differently is all. Maybe one isn't fully grasping my thought processes and I how I, not someone else instead, goes about reasoning through some of these things. If we were having these discussions in person, I guarantee you that you all would be understanding my thought processes then, because I would be able to adequately explain it to you. That doesn't mean you would be agreeing with me, it just means that you would fully understand that I'm not deliberately doing anything, such as misrepresenting one's view.

But in a setting like this I don't want to have to do all of that every time. Too much typing involved, way too tedious for someone like me who is a slow typer, can't stand typing to begin with, not to mention, arthritis runs in my family, and me being someone who can express my thoughts in person better than I can in writing.

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No Amil has asked you to ever apologize for espousing your own opinions. Never! What we have challenged is your constant misrepresentation of Amillennialism. For years we have giving you a pass for ignorance. But after explaining our position repeatedly and in detail (to you like no other), you still keep misrepresenting us. That is why we say this is deliberate misinformation. Why? There can be no other reason but you have no answer to Amil.

This issue surfaced because you keep rubbishing the idea that the devil can be in a literal geographical prison and yet still be walking about the earth. If you would just acknowledge our position and realize that this prison the devil is in is a spiritual prison and the chains that hold him back are spiritual then it would be easy to grasp the thrust of the Amillennialist position. But to do that would mean conceding a strong Amil argument, something that you would never do.

Your fellow Premil, Fullness of the Gentiles, even corrected your misrepresentations:

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

In a sense it is misrepresenting their view because again, unlike you and me, Amils don't believe Satan's being "in the pit" means he is inactive ... Amils don't see Satan's being "in the pit" as meaning he is unable to "roam around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour".

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DavidPT said:

Even I, though I'm a Premil, fully agree that none of you have anything to apologize for in regards to any of that. You have a right to interpret the meaning of the thousand years how ever you see fit, just like Premils have that same right. And if one doesn't agree with one's interpretation, that person has a right to dispute it.

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But, this isn't about having to apologize for disagreeing with others, this is about misrepresenting other people's views and apologizing for that. My point is that if I say something that disagrees with the majority Premil view then I shouldn't have to apologize to someone like keras just because what I said doesn't represent his particular unique Premil view.

This has been what has been getting me into bit of trouble that I don't feel I deserve. That because I am disputing one's interpretation, I am then deliberately misrepresenting that side's view, thus being deceitful by doing so, thus underhanded tactics on my part.

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It's only because you've misrepresented amils so many times that makes me wonder if you're doing it deliberately or not, but I will take your word for it that you're not doing it deliberately.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

copy @DavidPT
It would be nice though if both individual Amils and individual Premils could leave me out of their gripes with one another.

I think you're taking this too far, SG, and I'm shocked that you're using this as a spear to thrust into a fellow believer in Christ because of his gripes with your own eschatological position. He wasn't being personal, so when you use words like "your game is over" and keep on with a personal argument, rather than an argument about eschatology, please leave me out of it.

I think you guys wanna calm down. Jesus is watching us (and I'm not one to talk, I know) but just please both you and David drop this now. If David feels frustrated about the way you see things and talks about that, it's still not personal. I never took his remarks or understood his remarks as a personal attack against you or anyone else.

But I think you guys need to calm down and leave it alone now. Ask David what his favorite chorus/hymn is and then discuss your favorite hymns.

.. and both of you please stop mentioning me or telling me what Amils believe if you're Premil.

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I accept your overall point. I removed "your game is over" phrase. It was not needed.

I do not apologize for challenging the misrepresentations as they have been going on for years and he refuses to acknowledge our explanations or change. Until he addresses that, I will continue to confront those misrepresentations when they appear. That is only right. Truth matters. Others are watching on. Jesus did that repeatedly, and so did the prophets and apostles.

I am close to Amils on this board and I know they privately do not appreciate him and Timothfly constantly misrepresenting our position despite knowing the reality. Granted, that is their choice, but it is not right.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

copy @DavidPT
It would be nice though if both individual Amils and individual Premils could leave me out of their gripes with one another.

I think you're taking this too far, SG, and I'm shocked that you're using this as a spear to thrust into a fellow believer in Christ because of his gripes with your own eschatological position. He wasn't being personal, so when you use words like "your game is over" and keep on with a personal argument, rather than an argument about eschatology, please leave me out of it.

I think you guys wanna calm down. Jesus is watching us (and I'm not one to talk, I know) but just please both you and David drop this now. If David feels frustrated about the way you see things and talks about that, it's still not personal. I never took his remarks or understood his remarks as a personal attack against you or anyone else.

But I think you guys need to calm down and leave it alone now. Ask David what his favorite chorus/hymn is and then discuss your favorite hymns.

.. and both of you please stop mentioning me or telling me what Amils believe if you're Premil.

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I get your point and totally understand it and would never try to tell you to feel otherwise. It's a fair and reasonable request.

But, I do think it was worthwhile and reasonable for SG to point out that even another premil agreed that David was misrepresenting Amil. Would you have been okay with it if he just said "another premil" without mentioning you by name? It seems to me like that would have been okay.

Anyway, I commend you for being the voice of reason here and trying to calm things down. Obviously, you had some issues with losing your temper a bit here in the past and it seems you maybe took a break from the forum for awhile. And I think you've done an admirable job of toning things down since you came back.