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Who Wants to Live Forever?

muichimotsu

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The methods suggested would more than likely be needlessly complicated. Hibernation or cryostasis come to mind. Transferring consciousness is a possibility, similar to reincarnation or even rebirth


Death would not be required of an immortal existence.

That already presumes the immortal existence doesn't want death, however



Fights do not always end in death yet they often settle disputes. War without death would be my preferable type of war.

Then all you want is the pretense of war, not war itself, where death is pretty much assured to some degree


Dealt with, but that takes time with the degree of evolution viruses go through. Sickness would still affect us and we could never die even if the disease would normally kill us. We'd be in a state of perpetual suffering until the disease is cured, which isn't always so simple, i.e. AIDS. An immortal with AIDS would beg for death a thousand times over.


Then we can agree that, for those of us with that belief, immortality is desirable.

And those who disbelieve will, contrariwise, hate immortality. Seems like a semi tautology in that, of course, those who disagree with you will not like the outcome of things


"Baseless and groundless" is nothing more than your opinion. My argument is that God prepared it for me so it is desirable regardless to how I feel about it. As I said, the discussion ends there. We disagree.
It's not a mere disagreement, you have no evidence or compelling arguments beyond your faith belief in a text holy to you. This isn't whether we find vanilla or chocolate ice cream more tasty or even questions of exact ethical origins, even if we agree on the course of action. This is something unfalsifiable and unverifiable by its nature: something supernatural.


I qualified it by speculating it. We are talking about a purely speculative subject, and one speculation is as qualified as another.
There's so many that this becomes almost pointless. I say almost, because creativity is interesting in itself, but only so far.


If you can die by having your head cut off or a stake driven through you, you are not, in my understanding, immortal at all.
Immortality in many regards seems to be a matter of 99% immortality, since, the understanding is that death is still something at least somewhat necessary, if only to make the immortals remotely vulnerable. Invulnerability and immortality creates the worst kind of curse, since there is no sense of threat in the slightest

We agree that individual immortality *could* create isolation and despair. The increase in amount of love an immortal could experience might out weigh the pain and make immortality ultimately beneficial.

You'd see everyone around you die, everything you hold dear fall away and you can do nothing about it, as if you are trapped
 
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muichimotsu

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Here's some support for the argument-from-works-of-fiction against the desirability of immortality (note I'm starting from a fairly abstract point, so nothing about immortality is going to directly appear in the following quote):

Seems like you're literally giving an abstract, or more precisely, a bibliography.
 
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Ripheus27

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Seems like it's always a work in progress, then. Not exactly perfect

Well, to go back to the literary example I gave: in heaven we might say, "Rather, as I grew worthier to see, the more I looked, the more unchanging semblance appeared to change with every change in me." You might think of it like a never-ending ascent towards God: at no moment have those in heaven attained absolute perfection, but they are always progressing closer to the absolute limit, and the approach will always go on and on and on. Perhaps that would even define, by contrast, hell: in hell, no one is ascending, or they're even descending.

It's not necessarily about verification here but the coherence of the concept. One cannot understand heat without understanding cold, for instance, to use a more scientific principle.

The people in heaven would mostly be people who did, at some point, know what displeasure, etc. are like though, wouldn't they?
 
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muichimotsu

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Infinite progression can still lead to similar issues, since there is no sense of even remote completion or satisfaction. The disappointment might counteract it, but a lot of this presumes people care about God. Why would I want to descend, though? Life is ups and downs, so perpetual progress in one direction seems counter intuitive.

The people in heaven would mostly be people who did, at some point, know what displeasure, etc. are like though, wouldn't they?
In the temporal world, yes. In this spiritual world, it'd be like those experiences amount to nothing, since they have infinite time. It's the fact that you experience change in a limited time frame that gives the significance to events, I'd argue
 
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Ripheus27

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Infinite progression can still lead to similar issues, since there is no sense of even remote completion or satisfaction. The disappointment might counteract it, but a lot of this presumes people care about God.

Well, supposedly, if we could directly look at God, It would be such an overwhelmingly awesome sight that we would be delirious to think to look away from It. I have had some mystical experiences that may or may not have been of God (probably not quite) and nothing about the thing I "saw" in them has seemed like It would diminish in value if I concentrated on It more, to the point of eternally concentrating on It even. However, this is not even just subjective, it's mystical, so I won't press the impression as too valid an experience to derive a solid conclusion from at this juncture.

Now as for a sense of satisfaction or completeness, those who were ascending would never feel like they were objectively closer to absolute completeness, but they might feel a relative completeness and be satisfied with this.

... for such a fire of love burned in her eyes
that mine, I thought, had touched the final depth
both of my Grace and my Paradise. [Paradiso canto XV]

It's also like how there are an infinite number of mathematical problems to solve, yet the solution of any of them occasions great joy for a mathematician.

Why would I want to descend, though? Life is ups and downs, so perpetual progress in one direction seems counter intuitive

There might be something equivocal about the ups and downs of life being compared to heaven as an ascent of some kind and hell as the opposite.

In the temporal world, yes. In this spiritual world, it'd be like those experiences amount to nothing, since they have infinite time. It's the fact that you experience change in a limited time frame that gives the significance to events, I'd argue

So a finite amount of displeasure wouldn't teach us the significance of pleasure if pleasure, by contrast, were given to us in an infinite amount? Once again, until we can actually find an immortal and ask him or her if this is true, I don't see any scientific justification for assuming such a theory.

At best, we (not you and me, but me and anyone else who thinks of heaven as desirable) should perhaps say, "Well, we just have no real idea whether heaven would get dull or not since we have no experience of it. This means that we shouldn't aspire to heaven unless we want to test whether it would really be as great as it's said it will be."
 
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muichimotsu

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The satisfaction is ever increasing in possibility, so there's no sense of disappointment, which creates a problem of expectations always being met, which isn't realistic.

It's also like how there are an infinite number of mathematical problems to solve, yet the solution of any of them occasions great joy for a mathematician.
So this whole thing boils down to the subjective experience of someone who gives a hoot about God or not?


There might be something equivocal about the ups and downs of life being compared to heaven as an ascent of some kind and hell as the opposite.
What's wrong with nonexistence if there is always some degree of equalization with reproduction and the like? It's not as if we're reaching a point where the population is decreasing



An infinite amount of anything creates an excess of familiarity. You have to have them in moderation or they become worthless as things we experience as limited entities. This whole notion of the afterlife is a human aspiration to something beyond what is realistic or even necessary for them to have fulfillment as existential beings.

So it's just a matter of the possibility? That's a fairly superfluous and superficial motivation for such a thing
 
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Tree of Life

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Yes. Life is good and I don't want to lose a good thing (unless it is replaced by a better thing).


Only if you find life ultimately tedious. Life without God would be tedious and undesirable. So eternal life without him would be (and is) hell. God agrees. This is why he banishes our first parents from the garden -- that they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and live forever. Eternal life is only desirable if sin is removed and we live eternally in the presence of life and youth itself.
 
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muichimotsu

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Yes. Life is good and I don't want to lose a good thing (unless it is replaced by a better thing).

A bit simplistic of an argument. Nothing in excess is good, I'd argue. Life is good, of course. I don't think we'd disagree on that. But merely because there is the possibility of losing it does not mean one should cling to it and desire its persistence forever



Life would become tedious with immortality, which is one of my primary arguments. Life without God is quite enjoyable and I desire it quite strongly, though honestly, life as it is, whether God exists or not, seems fundamentally similar, since God appears to not want to do anything that would make its existence seem even probable. Twiddling its proverbial thumbs.

You're really going to argue this based on the myth of Eden? even the figurative and metaphorical version of that story makes more sense in that humanity is seen as maturing and going beyond childhood into a young adulthood or adolescence, expected to do some things on its own and follow rules.

Why would God even put a fruit in the garden that would enable its creations to live forever if they already had an immortal soul and would live forever in that regard anyway? Seems like an unnecessary failsafe.

Seems like if sin is removed, then free will is removed as well, if sin is by necessity the result of free will...awkward little situation you've put yourself in there. Worst kind of immortality so far
 
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Tree of Life

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Easy to say at 25. Maybe you'll change your tune.

Yet you don't desire it strongly enough to mourn its inevitable loss. You welcome the loss of life.
Why would God even put a fruit in the garden that would enable its creations to live forever if they already had an immortal soul and would live forever in that regard anyway? Seems like an unnecessary failsafe.
Man was created mortal.
Seems like if sin is removed, then free will is removed as well, if sin is by necessity the result of free will...awkward little situation you've put yourself in there. Worst kind of immortality so far
The removal of sin is the essence of freedom. Sin doesn't enhance freedom, it takes it away.
 
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muichimotsu

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Easy to say at 25. Maybe you'll change your tune.

I'm using a fairly traditional notion of the good in things, Aristotle's Golden Mean. If you're going to criticize my argument, criticize the points, not the person arguing, which is ad hominem in one form or another. Your argument suggesting I'm going to change my mind because I'm young is fallacious and generalizing. Don't really appreciate your condescension because I'm willing to disclose my age and you seem to not want to.

Yet you don't desire it strongly enough to mourn its inevitable loss. You welcome the loss of life.

I mourn the loss of life. Don't talk like you know me. I do not look forward to death, but I accept it nonetheless. There is no contradiction there, merely a paradox

Man was created mortal.

Only if you believe humanity was created, which makes the whole discussion moot in your use of faith claims to justify your arguments instead of some modicum of falsifiability and evidence, or even remotely solid arguments.

The removal of sin is the essence of freedom. Sin doesn't enhance freedom, it takes it away.

Sin is based on the ability to choose evil. It cheapens freedom, it doesn't take it away, in the christian perspective, if I'm understanding it even remotely right.

Without sin, you can only choose good, so you're no different than the angels, contrary to any absurd notions drawn from mistranslations and misinterpretations of text from the bible that suggests there is any real notion of fallen angels.
 
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Tree of Life

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I'm afraid the argument is inseparable from the person. One of the tragedies of western thought is the idea that we can separate our ideas from our lives.
I mourn the loss of life. Don't talk like you know me. I do not look forward to death, but I accept it nonetheless. There is no contradiction there, merely a paradox
I'm not seeing the paradox but I do see the contradiction.
Sin is based on the ability to choose evil. It cheapens freedom, it doesn't take it away, in the christian perspective, if I'm understanding it even remotely right.

I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. This is the Christian perspective.

Without sin, you can only choose good, so you're no different than the angels, contrary to any absurd notions drawn from mistranslations and misinterpretations of text from the bible that suggests there is any real notion of fallen angels.

Biblical freedom is the ability to be who we really are. A fish is only free if it's in the water. Being on land doesn't make it more free, but less free. Freedom only exists within restrictions, but it's about finding the proper restrictions.
 
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muichimotsu

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I'm afraid the argument is inseparable from the person. One of the tragedies of western thought is the idea that we can separate our ideas from our lives.

One of the tragedies of people thinking they are philosophical is misconstruing what people mean in their arguments or thinking they trump logic with sophistry. Your mere assertions that my argument is inseparable from me does not support your conclusions. Make premises that have a relation to each other that forms a cogent and valid argument before you go spouting off so called wisdom to me because you think that you have an advantage due to a longer life by comparison. It's pitiful when you start arguing like that.

Anyone could make my argument, age is irrelevant to this. Your bringing up my age is just dodging the fact that you seem to have no real response to my criticism of immortality as an excess of life and thus not a good thing in the same way recklessness is excessive courage and thus not virtuous.

I'm not seeing the paradox but I do see the contradiction.

One can accept death without welcoming it. You seem to conflate the two much too easily. I have a will to live, but not to the level of insisting I must live forever


I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. This is the Christian perspective.
You tell me what you believe, nothing more. You have your right to belief, but that does not trump my argument merely because you hold a strong conviction that opposes it.

Biblical freedom is the ability to be who we really are. A fish is only free if it's in the water. Being on land doesn't make it more free, but less free. Freedom only exists within restrictions, but it's about finding the proper restrictions.

Of course freedom has restrictions, but there is such a thing as excessive prohibition when one is literally only able to choose the good. This is little better than being an automaton. Your argument based on freedom being the same as being our true selves seems flawed in that you make a correlation between freedom and identity, as if one cannot have volition without knowing themselves in full, which is absurd.

One can be confused about my purpose, but still be able to make choices, whether they lead towards or away from that purpose.

Your fish argument is making a category mistake. No one would argue a fish is more free because it's on land, since a fish necessarily has physical limitations.

A human is more free when they can choose good and evil, which was the basic moral of sorts in the Eden story, even if there is the counterpoint that having the choice between good and evil also brings hardships, which I will not deny. The Jewish interpretation of the story makes far more sense than any Christian one I've seen that tries to make itself seem unique in comparison to those who originally wrote the story to begin with.

I'm not arguing that absolute freedom is the ideal, but merely freedom beyond being able to only choose one course of action that is not beneficial to the individual making the choices, but to the one who compels and essentially coerces them to do so, e.g. your god.
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's not an Ad Hominem, a persons views on mortality certainly change as they grow older and get closer to death.

If he discounted your views because you're bald, or have green hair (I don't know what your hair looks like), that's an Ad Hominem. However bringing age into the picture when discussing the topic of mortality is certainly justifiable.
 
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muichimotsu

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That's not an Ad Hominem, a persons views on mortality certainly change as they grow older and get closer to death.

If I was sharing my position in general, maybe, but I was making a specific argument in terms of logical qualities and properties.

If he discounted your views because you're bald, or have green hair (I don't know what your hair looks like), that's an Ad Hominem. However bringing age into the picture when discussing the topic of mortality is certainly justifiable.

Not entirely, though I can see the point. He's criticizing the argument based on my age. The fact that it's a discussion of mortality and such is fundamentally irrelevant to my point, which was that immortality is excess life, therefore posing an issue in terms of the Golden Mean, which isn't strictly western, mind you, if that was going to be an accusation of limited perspective.
 
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Tree of Life

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I understand the logic. Still, it's one thing to say it at 25 and another to say it at 85.

The young, unlearned man who says "I can know nothing" is a fool.
The old, learned man who says "I now know that I can know nothing" is wise.

Same proposition but the context of the person makes all the difference. Truth can't be so easily separated from personality. I say you will not believe your own statement at an older age. What does that do to your statement?
 
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Tree of Life

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One can accept death without welcoming it. You seem to conflate the two much too easily. I have a will to live, but not to the level of insisting I must live forever
Yet you say that it's good that we die. It would be bad to live forever. It sounds like you welcome death.
You tell me what you believe, nothing more. You have your right to belief, but that does not trump my argument merely because you hold a strong conviction that opposes it.
I'm quoting Jesus, the patron saint of Christianity.
 
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muichimotsu

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It says that you presume everyone will think the same way at your age, which is ridiculous.

I'm stating something that you haven't made a counter argument to, which I have already conceived of from your hypothetical perspective. If you're not even trying that, why even discuss, which is part of the intent of this thread? Do you have a response to my argument that eternal life or immortality are basically an excess of the good that is life?

Of course I accept Socrates' principle. I could learn other things, but I also accept my ignorance on many things: ballet, football, muscle cars, etc.

And of course the person makes some difference, but it isn't deterministic in any sense.
 
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muichimotsu

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Yet you say that it's good that we die. It would be bad to live forever. It sounds like you welcome death.

By no means. I want to live a full and rich life. But this doesn't follow to me thinking, "Hey, I want to live forever," Maybe a couple hundred years, possibly even a millennium, but honestly, life would become tiresome after a time, even with many medical advances, if we're talking a naturalistic form of immortality. Supernatural ones...fairly undesirable by the nature of their origin.

How would it be good if we lived forever? I've heard no good arguments for this, even from an atheist, who was at least trying to qualify a difference and the nuances. But if we assume Christianity is true, how it is a good thing to essentially place 80-90% of the population in eternal torment of one form or another and leaving 10% or so in eternal bliss? Sounds like an aristocracy of the afterlife.

An example I'd bring up is someone with an incurable disease living forever. Would they want that? OF course, this is a very particular case, but assuming disease doesn't go away, which technically it would in the Christian afterlife, why would people choose to live forever in suffering? Assuming disease is gone,

I contend that it'd be like the martians in War of the Worlds in that you're deprived of something that makes humans human, we adapt, we evolve. Without such things as sadness or the like, we'd have no real motivation.

But then, you'd say, we can just worship God all we want. If nothing else, this boils down to a slave mentality, or a servant's. Either way, it's pitiable and dehumanizing that our existence would be simplified to nothing more than being God's lapdog.

I'm quoting Jesus, the patron saint of Christianity.
He's the founder of Christianity, at least get your terms right. Calling him a saint is almost an insult, since he's supposedly God incarnate. Your quoting of Jesus is irrelevant, since this boils down to the fallacy of appeal to authority, as far as your argument has gone. There's no real support to your claims merely because you use someone you regard as authoritative.
 
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Ripheus27

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The satisfaction is ever increasing in possibility, so there's no sense of disappointment, which creates a problem of expectations always being met, which isn't realistic.

Reality is relative in many ways, however. Of course heaven would be different from Earth, so standards of "realistic" would have to change if we made it there from here. Gravity on our planet is different from lunar gravity; so is it unrealistic for us to expect to be able to jump around higher on the Moon than on Earth?

What's wrong with nonexistence if there is always some degree of equalization with reproduction and the like? It's not as if we're reaching a point where the population is decreasing

I was talking about something else. I meant that, "Life has ups and downs," and, "Heaven is an ascent while hell is a descent," though overlapping to some extent in meaning with ups/ascent and downs/descent being the correspondents, do not admit of univocal evaluation. The presence of partly shared meaning between both sentences doesn't imply that life having ups and downs is directly relevant to whether heaven-as-ascent of some kind is worthwhile or a reflection of reality.


Again, we don't have any immortals to ask about an "excess of familiarity," so if we're limiting ourselves to what's scientific, well, psychology is already a soft science, with much more ambiguous results than chemistry or physics (for instance), so you shouldn't be very confident in the things you're saying. But now if your argument is based on the metaphysics of "moderation" and "experience as limited entities," your argument is not very deep. It doesn't address a lot of the questions that are pertinent to the subject.

So it's just a matter of the possibility? That's a fairly superfluous and superficial motivation for such a thing

No, it's not. Not any more than, "Well, I'd get bored if I were there," as a reason to avoid a place, anyway.
_________________________________________________________________
To turn to the argument-from-works-of-fiction, though, which is the best point you've made so far:

My initial reaction to the list of stories you presented was, "Well, these authors are lacking in imagination to some degree." Now this might not be fair, though, since many of those you listed seem like fairly thoughtful people. It would be better for me to actually present a positive example of an author conveying a vision of eternity that can be rationally appealing. That's why I've been quoting Dante's Paradiso a lot, though, because Dante paints a picture of the Christian heaven that is, for lack of a better word, cool. I actually said that when reading the poem: "Christianity is so f^%king cool!" A deeper description might be awesome: Dante's God is an awesome God, and to reach the Empyrean would fill me with awe.

Another example of a work of fiction supporting the appeal of eternity is the show Lost. First, at the end of the show, most of the star-crossed lovers from the series, as well as some other main characters, "wake up" in an alternative reality where they have basically been resurrected after dying in the reality most of the story takes place in. Then they join together in a church (not a Christian church, exactly) and go together into a light, the light of eternity. Watching this scene was one of the most powerful experiences of my entire life, I'll note (I started crying so hard that my friends thought something was wrong, though things were far from wrong in my eyes at that point).

The story of Christianity itself is one that presents the concept of eternal life in what is for some an inspiring way. Looking at the flow of history as culminating in the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity is a concrete way to represent a perspective embracing a vast timeline beyond that of finite death. Christ's parables about the kingdom of heaven, in other words, speak of a world to come Whose glory would not weigh down on us with Its infinity, but elevate us. (Or, to paraphrase C. S. Lewis, the weight of this glory would be one that would hold us up by way of our power to stand it.)

Maybe this all sounds "flowery," though. So another example of something with emotional meaning that indicates a capacity for rapture in us, I would say, is music. J. S. Bach's Endlessly Rising Canon, for example, expresses infinite constructive emotion. The Explosions in the Sky song "The Only Moment We Were Alone" has a similar affect* (on me at least, and in my case a more profound one than Bach's work). Now you might not see a connection between pure instrumental music and fiction, but without going into details, the way they're connected is through the paradoxes of emotion both involve.

Lastly, then, there is the type of music known as fado. This is devoted to expressing the emotion saudade. If you've ever felt saudade, you would know that there is no way at all possible to ever get tired of it. It's not exactly a form of happiness because there's actually something melancholy about it, but it's also like déjà vu and it does elicit a mysterious euphoria while simultaneously evoking itself as mysteriously sad. And it's no idealistic fantasy, it's something possibly everyone in the world knows about at least once in his or her life. To think of being saudade forever is a very simple exercise of the imagination, but one that is close enough to proof that there is a way for eternity to be worth the effort of enduring it, if you will.

*And I do mean the word affect, if as a little double entendre.
 
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muichimotsu

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Physical relativity is quite different than something necessarily relative, experience. Satisfaction is not something people agree on in any context, so this seems to be a category mistake. Heaven may have obvious physical differences as some place, but this doesn't follow to it effecting our psychology except as the physical differences make their effect on our minds.


Life having ups and downs would lead to more support for my argument that death is a necessity in existence, since for life to be good, we have to have death as a balancer

It's not metaphysics of moderation, but ethics or aesthetics, since those are where the ideas originated. One can apply them to metaphysical topics, though the end result is an ethical or aesthetic conclusion, not metaphysical, since we're judging goodness or beauty, not existence strictly speaking as reality or not.


No, it's not. Not any more than, "Well, I'd get bored if I were there," as a reason to avoid a place, anyway.

In the case of a place I can leave, my boredom is easily fixed. If I can't leave, why would I ever want to go there to begin with? Your logic isn't clicking here.
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