So you reject the truth because of perceived bad behavior by some?The more I see what passes for "Christian love" as displayed by critics of the church, the more I want to remain a member of the LDS faith.
I learn more about Mormonism here. I had lots of Dutch mentors as well (e.g. Cornelius Van Til).
Your turn.
Are you asking your questions because you want answers or have you in fact already made up your mind?
Scrutinizing a faith is finr and I would be doing so myself if there weren't so many wolves around ready to pounce on them.
You're dating yourself.
Both Francis Schaeffer and Roshdoony were a big fans of his theology and apologetics, weren't they? Makes me wonder what is the connection between him and Christian Reconstructionalism.
Who did you study church history with?
There are some Mormons on here who say that not everything Smith and Young say is doctrinal---that they don't have to believe them, then why be a Mormon??
Van Til did not deal with politics much and preceded Schaeffer and Rushdoony and the rise of CR. I had some classmates into that but I hold more of an Anabaptist view of church/state. My dissertation was supervised by Clair Davis and my external examiner was William Estep. My masters study was primarily under John Hannah.
We can continue this by PM if you like so we do not derail.
William Esteps, I know him! Had a long and very fruitful dialogue with him on a plane ride years ago when we were both returning from a conference. He's the one who first told me about CR and just how dangerous it was. I thought his last book Revolution Within the Revolution: The First Amendment in Historical Context was phenomenal.
Just because not everything Smith and Young say is not doctrinal does not mean nothing they say is. They have four canonical texts. What every Mormon is supposed to believe is contained in those texts.
Wait a minute--these are not guys writing a little book about how to pray or something like that---these guys made up this religion--they came up with these notions and they were the leaders of the church, they claimed their revelations were from God, no maybe about it.
They were the faith. So now, since they are dead and can no longer speak, that is no longer true?? Young stated his truth about this blasphemous garden of Eden, conception of Christ thing is doctrinal--and it means salvation or damnation--so the leader of the church makes such a statement and now, it is no longer doctrinal?
Are you saying that the BOM is no longer doctrinal and what is in there is no longer valid???
This is more of this yes/no thing that drives me nuts---who now decides what the church actually believes?
So we have to go through all these books to find out what they believe?--They just can't say we believe God was a man on another planet before he was god?
I mean you can go to just about any official website and of any denomination and their believes will be easy to find out--not so with Mormons--you can't pin them down on much. Why? Somebody just give me a list of their doctrines!!!
Ask me a question and I will answer it.Wait a minute--these are not guys writing a little book about how to pray or something like that---these guys made up this religion--they came up with these notions and they were the leaders of the church, they claimed their revelations were from God, no maybe about it. They were the faith. So now, since they are dead and can no longer speak, that is no longer true?? Young stated his truth about this blasphemous garden of Eden, conception of Christ thing is doctrinal--and it means salvation or damnation--so the leader of the church makes such a statement and now, it is no longer doctrinal? Are you saying that the BOM is no longer doctrinal and what is in there is no longer valid??? This is more of this yes/no thing that drives me nuts---who now decides what the church actually believes? So we have to go through all these books to find out what they believe?--They just can't say we believe God was a man on another planet before he was god? I mean you can go to just about any official website and of any denomination and their believes will be easy to find out--not so with Mormons--you can't pin them down on much. Why? Somebody just give me a list of their doctrines!!! Darn it--it's like a national security issue or something!! Do they have as much trouble finding out what is doctrinal as we do?
You seem unable to distinguish between the office they were claiming and their persons. I would agree that anything they claimed was revealed to them from God would constitute doctrine but my understanding is that those revelations are all contained within the Mormon canonical texts.
I'm saying if it is doctrinal then it should be found in one of their four canonical texts.
The Book of Mormon is a canonical text. I believe Doctrines and Covenants are as well.
The four canonical Mormon texts?
You can always ask them what they believe. Instead you'd rather go to non-canonical sources and tell the Mormons what they believe.
They are right here, if you want to know what they believe all you have to do is ask. Instead everyone seems determined to tell the Mormons what they believe.
OK--list your doctrines!
We believe that God the Father has a glorified perfected physical body. We believe that hat the Son has a resurrected glorified physical body. The Holy Ghost is a spirit. We believe that they are seperate and distinct individuals but together they become the Godhead under which all things are done with one intent under the direction of the Father. They become as one in intent and and action. Each has their calling.OK--now can you list the rest of your believes??
When is it that all the rest of it comes to light? Do I have to take it a question at a time? You all can't just state what your believes are?
Like God's History and origin
Who is Satan
Where was the Garden of Eden
what happens after death
the conception of Christ
Even one question?--no lengthy explanation needed, just the basics not the why it's believed, just the believe? The above doctrine states that the BOM is also the word of God--so that means everything in it is doctrinal and to be believed--right??
OK--now can you list the rest of your believes??
When is it that all the rest of it comes to light? Do I have to take it a question at a time? You all can't just state what your believes are?
Like God's History and origin
Who is Satan
Where was the Garden of Eden
what happens after death
the conception of Christ
Even one question?--no lengthy explanation needed, just the basics not the why it's believed, just the believe? The above doctrine states that the BOM is also the word of God--so that means everything in it is doctrinal and to be believed--right??
We believe that God the Father has a glorified perfected physical body. We believe that hat the Son has a resurrected glorified physical body. The Holy Ghost is a spirit. We believe that they are seperate and distinct individuals but together they become the Godhead under which all things are done with one intent under the direction of the Father. They become as one in intent and and action. Each has their calling.
We believe that before this life we lived in a pre existence where our spirits were created by our Heavenly Father. We lived there and learned and gained knowledge. Every person that is on the earth today or that has or will be born lived in this pre existane. There was one third of those spirits that rebelled against the Father with the leader being lucifer. That third was kicked out. They lost their right to come to earth to gain a physical body.
Got to go write more later
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