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Who is the father of Joseph?

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Simonline

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GREENLIGHT said:
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.



it is realy confusing!!!!!!!

That's because they are two different geneologies.

The geneology in Matthew is the geneology of the royal line from David down to Joseph (the husband of Mary). However, because God cursed the royal line after Jeconiah (Jer.22:30) none of Jeconiah's physical descendents (including Joseph the husband of Mary) were ever allowed to sit on the throne of David (which is why the Idumean, Herod the Great, was king of Israel at the time of the Messiah's birth and not Joseph, the husband of Mary).

If you read most modern translations then in the case of both geneologies it will probably say 'so and so' the son of 'so and so'. However, if you read the Authorised Version of 1611 (a.k.a. the 'King James Version') then you will find that the geneology in Matthew says 'so and so' begat 'so and so' whereas the one in Luke says 'so and so' the son of 'so and so'. This is because the the words used in the original Hebrew for begat and the son of are different.

The archaic English verb 'to beget' literallly means 'to give rise to', 'to be the cause of', 'to bring into being' and not simply 'to give birth to' which is how most people tend to understand it. Whilst this understanding is not incorrect, the verb 'to beget' can and does have a much broader application than simply 'to give birth to'.

In the case of Matthew's geneology it is the royal line to the King of the Jews ['Where is he that is born the King of the Jews?' Matt.2:2] This geneology is that of Jesus' royal title of inheritance in Joseph. His right to the throne of David which had passed - over the generations - in direct succession to Mary's husband. Of this the angel Gabriel testifies, saying 'Joseph, thou son of David, fear not!' (Matt.1:20).

The 'book of the generation' is the record of the proper royal succession. As such it does not necessarily show an unbroken line of descent from father to son. It is the legal line of title, a line of inheritance. It is a question of the one to whom prior right pertains.

For example, suppose a king - an only son - having no issue, or only female issue, should die in battle, having neither sons nor brethren the crown might pass to his surviving uncle, and thereafter to that uncle's son. Yet in the geneology the names of the king, the king's uncle and the king's cousin (the uncle's son) would all be connected in succession by the word 'begat'. A royal geneology therefore shows the passage of the crown, which must always pass to the nearest qualifying male of the blood-royal: but by no means is that necessarily a son.

So it came to pass that the long neglected title to the throne of David came to Joseph not by direct descent but by proper legal succession. That is what the geneology in Matthew is all about, and why the formula of connection from one heir to the next is 'beget, give origin, produce. A much more broadly based word for succession than that indicating 'the son of' which allows no lattitude at all. 'Beget' may refer to a son; but just as easily it might be used of an uncle, a nephew or a cousin. It is wholely a question of an heir to the throne produced by the incumbent who begets, 'gives rise to', a successor. He has begotten him to that throne.

The legal form of royal geneology traces the crown from generation to generation irrespective of the exact personal relationship one king and the next in line. To do so the record uses the broad formula 'begat', not 'to give birth to a son' but 'to give genesis, constitute a new king.

Of course, usually this will be a son, but at least in one case the nephew was succeded by his uncle; this would be indicated by 'begat' just the same as if the nephew were followed by his own offspring. The thing to grasp is that such a royal geneology is the ancestry of the crown. And that is precisely what we have in Matthew's geneology from 'David the king' onwards.

Luke's geneology however, is Joseph's physical geneology, therefore Heli was Joseph's real, flesh and blood, father.

Hope this clarifies things a bit?

Simonline.

And in case you're wondering, the Messiah is able to circumvent Jeconiah's curse by virtue of the fact that he is not Joseph's physical heir, but is Josephs legal heir and therefore the rightful heir to the throne of Israel [being a physical descendent of David through his mother's side].
 
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Tenorvoice

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iktca said:
Greenlight,
It's still confusing to me even with the explanation.
Rupert

to put it in quick and easy terms......

The passage in Matthew, is the Geneology of Joseph

Where as the passage in Luke is the geneology of Mary.

If you read in just about any commentary it will tell you this.
 
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StAnselm

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And yet, there both say they are the genealogy of Joseph. It would seem unlikely that "son of Heli" means "son-in-law of Heli". Whereas it could quite easily mean "grandson" - it is possible that there are gaps in the genealogies. (Matthew obviously likes the idea of three groups of 14.)

Simonline's explanation as some merit, but it doesn't explain how we know Jesus is a physical descendent of David through his mother's side.
 
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GREENLIGHT

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Since Jesus did not have a biological father therefore to talk of his genealogy does not make any sense. If at all his genealogy could he quoted it can only be quoted from his mother’s side. But it is not so in Bible.

Moreover, we consider Jesus to be GOD incarnate or the son of GOD. In that case also how can there be a genealogy of GOD! Despite these two contentious arguments Bible does give a male genealogy of Jesus!

Only two Gospel writers e.g. Matthew and Luke mention Jesus’s Genealogy. But they give different lists. (Even they contradict each other from David downwards. Mark and John are silent on this subject. Why? We do not know the reason.The list of two genealogies given by Matthew (1:1 -17) and by Luke (3;33-28) are questionable. Matthew in his list of names does not give any names from Adam, down to Abraham. But Luke does mention 20 names between Adam to Abraham!Further, Matthew mentions in his list 28 generations between David down to Jesus whereas Luke mentions 41 generations! (Contrary to these both the Testament One mentions only 12 generations between Adam down to Jesus)!



Matthew describes Jesus’s childhood differently from Luke whereas Mark does not mention it at all!


Modern scientific knowledge tells us that Adam, the first man, must have come on earth millions and millions of years ago, and not just 20+41 generations ago as Bible tells us.


Bible statements therefore appear to be totally out of context. According to modern science Jesus must have come hundreds and thousands of generations after Adam. We can safely say that the genealogies produced by Matthew and Luke is either fake or whimsical. They have projected their own imaginary lists. The writers of genealogies did not appreciate at the time of their writings that one day, when science would develop so much, as it has done today, that they would be questioned and they would stand exposed. And they will not be able to defend themselves.
 
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Macca

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GREENLIGHT said:
Since Jesus did not have a biological father therefore to talk of his genealogy does not make any sense. If at all his genealogy could he quoted it can only be quoted from his mother’s side. But it is not so in Bible.

Moreover, we consider Jesus to be GOD incarnate or the son of GOD. In that case also how can there be a genealogy of GOD! Despite these two contentious arguments Bible does give a male genealogy of Jesus!

Only two Gospel writers e.g. Matthew and Luke mention Jesus’s Genealogy. But they give different lists. (Even they contradict each other from David downwards. Mark and John are silent on this subject. Why? We do not know the reason.The list of two genealogies given by Matthew (1:1 -17) and by Luke (3;33-28) are questionable. Matthew in his list of names does not give any names from Adam, down to Abraham. But Luke does mention 20 names between Adam to Abraham!Further, Matthew mentions in his list 28 generations between David down to Jesus whereas Luke mentions 41 generations! (Contrary to these both the Testament One mentions only 12 generations between Adam down to Jesus)!



Matthew describes Jesus’s childhood differently from Luke whereas Mark does not mention it at all!


Modern scientific knowledge tells us that Adam, the first man, must have come on earth millions and millions of years ago, and not just 20+41 generations ago as Bible tells us.


Bible statements therefore appear to be totally out of context. According to modern science Jesus must have come hundreds and thousands of generations after Adam. We can safely say that the genealogies produced by Matthew and Luke is either fake or whimsical. They have projected their own imaginary lists. The writers of genealogies did not appreciate at the time of their writings that one day, when science would develop so much, as it has done today, that they would be questioned and they would stand exposed. And they will not be able to defend themselves.

You must choose whether you will believe God's Word or the theories of humans (often incorrect.)
Macca. :preach:
 
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prodromos

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The understanding passed down in the Orthodox Church, though I'm fuzzy on the details right now, is that Matthat died after the birth of Eli and his widow married Matthan with their marriage producing Jacob (or it was Matthan dying after the birth of Jacob with his widow marrying Matthat and producing Eli. I said I was fuzzy on the details ;) )

Thus Jacob and Eli are brothers with the same mother but different fathers. Jacob or Eli married (again, I'm fuzzy) but died before producing an heir and it was his brother's duty to produce an heir by his brother's widow who would be raised in the dead brother's name (you will find this somewhere in Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy). So Joseph actually has two fathers. One by blood, his biological father, and one by law, his legal father. I'm sorry I can't remember which one is which. I have this on my home computer which is a few hours away.

John
 
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