Who is Rahab?

[Siyha]

Creationists often point to Leviathan and Behemoth as descriptions of dinosaurs in the Hebrew Bible.

Many scholars believe they are references to mythical beings, drawing on imagery from the worldview of the Ancient Near East to bring up a point of Yahweh's power over the things the ancient world feared most.

Creationists do not agree. They are literal creatures being discussed. The Bible would not use ANE imagery and mythology because it is not true - therefore to use it would make the Bible untrue.

Fair enough. Truth can be a difficult thing to determine where lines should be drawn in literature - we all need lines and boundaries, otherwise anything the Bible says becomes entirely subjective and can potentially lose connection with the real world and real history.

But is this a fair place to draw the line? If the Bible is not allowed to draw on ANE imagery to depict Yahweh to the people, then who is Rahab?

Job 26:10-14
Psalm 89:9-13

The Job passage especially seems to draw heavily from the arc-type storm god vs sea/chaos deity at the dawn of creation.

 

[philadiddle]

While not directly on topic I think this could be helpful for some with this issue:

YouTube - N.T. Wright and Pete Enns: What Do You Mean by Literal?

 

[metherion]

Rahab is a water demon, a "water dragon of chaos and darkness" according to wikipedia. Associated specifically with the Red Sea.

As far as mythology goes, she was a chaos demon.


And according to wikipedia again, the name was apparently applied to Egypt as well. So it might very well have been... referring to a mythological tale of a demon's defeat... to reference a historical event like the Exodus...? No, I got nothing.

Metherion

Information source and quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab_(demon)

 

[Walter Kovacs]

And once again, NT Wright destroys all opposition.

 

[Siyha]

And once again, NT Wright destroys all opposition.

I can't wait till he dies so we can systematize his theology! I dibs the name "Wright Wings"

 

[Siyha]

Rahab is a water demon, a "water dragon of chaos and darkness" according to wikipedia. Associated specifically with the Red Sea.

As far as mythology goes, she was a chaos demon.


And according to wikipedia again, the name was apparently applied to Egypt as well. So it might very well have been... referring to a mythological tale of a demon's defeat... to reference a historical event like the Exodus...? No, I got nothing.

Metherion

Information source and quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab_(demon)

This actually is how the metaphor is applied in Isaiah.

In 30:7, Isaiah gives the nickname Rahab to Egypt. Then in Isaiah 51, you have a retelling of the crossing of the red sea where in verse 9 he refers to Rahab.

"Was it not you who cut Rahab to pieces,
who pierced that monster through?"

We see imagery being drawn upon here to illustrate Egypt as a monster of some sort.

However, this wouldn't properly apply to Job's reference to Rahab, since Job is set pre-exodus. Thus, its reference to Rahab cannot be of the exodus.

Also, Isaiah is written in apocalyptic metaphor and obvious non-literal imagery. But in order for Leviathan and Behemoth to be dinosaurs, Job must be written in a more historical and literal fashion, making the reference to Rahab, necessarily, just as literal and historic.

 

[AnswersInHovind]

It should probably be pointed out that in Job's speeches, he uses a lot of metaphors, like how he feels he is under seige by God, that there was a hedge around him that has been torn down, etc. Of course he didn't mean that there was a literal hedge, or that God had set up a catapult and was launching flaming rocks at him.

But the Leviathan and Behemoth are set in a string of real animals that God is using in the whirlwind speech to talk about his power. He does use similies within these speeches, but the subject of each section is always a real creature.

Going back to the start of chapter 39 you have:
mountain goats
donkeys
ox
ostrich
horse
hawk
*Job is allowed to speak*
Behemoth
Leviathan

I think in this context, the Leviathan and Behemoth are clearly as real as the hawk, without making Rahab a necessary literal creature.

 

[Mallon]

I think in this context, the Leviathan and Behemoth are clearly as real as the hawk, without making Rahab a necessary literal creature.

What do you make of the fact that we're told in the psalms that Leviathan has several heads?

 

[shernren]

But the Leviathan and Behemoth are set in a string of real animals that God is using in the whirlwind speech to talk about his power. He does use similies within these speeches, but the subject of each section is always a real creature.

Going back to the start of chapter 39 you have:
mountain goats
donkeys
ox
ostrich
horse
hawk
*Job is allowed to speak*
Behemoth
Leviathan

I think in this context, the Leviathan and Behemoth are clearly as real as the hawk, without making Rahab a necessary literal creature.

If anything, this to me is an argument against taking Leviathan and Behemoth naturalistically, as mere animals.

Job lost all his possessions, all his children, the wellness in his body, and the comfort of his wife. Do you really think a walk through the zoo would suffice to convince Job of the sovereignty of God? Surely not - and not even if God capped it off with Jurassic Park.

 

[Research2]

Creationists often point to Leviathan and Behemoth as descriptions of dinosaurs in the Hebrew Bible.

No its only a handful of Young Earth Creationists who do that. The problem though is that these beings are described as being primordial, or very old, so whatever they were (are?) they predate man by a long period. Leviathan for example is identified with being primeval in Job, chapter 3. Young Earth Creationism contradicts this, as they believe everything was created in just 6 days and therefore that everything is roughly the same age.

then who is Rahab?

I would say all these beings are rooted in pre-Adamite traditions, of Hominids or ape-type beings. The Hebrew noun behemoth is used in Joel 1:20, where it is rendered "wild animals'' i.e apes.

You can read more from this interpretation here -
Theozoology, or the Science of the Sodomite Apelings and the Divine Electron, by Jorg Lanz von Liebenfels

''It is important to collect the reports of the ancients about apes and to examine them in greater detail. In the Bible. the ape (Heb. qop), as such only occurs in I Kings X,22 and in II Chron. IX, 21. The original Hebrew text corresponds word-for-word in both cases. Solomon receives "gold," "silver," "ivory," and apes (Heb. qopim). The Latin Bible translates the word with simiae; in contrast, the Greeks translate only II Chron IX, 21 with pithekoi, as opposed to I Kings X.22 with lithoi = "stones." It is said in the Talmud that "in dreams all animals are equivalent except the ape and the long-tailed monkey. What the Talmud says in connection with this is also noteworthy: "Whoever sees a dwarf ... an ape, or a long-tailed monkey, should say: 'Blessed is he who alters the creatures!'" -- Another Semitic word for "ape" is tamewan. This word stands for a monster in Job III,16 (IV Ezra V.8) and in the Targum (the Aramaic translation of the Bible) in Is.XIII,21 and in Is. XXXIV, 4 it translates the Heb. siim. The Greeks said theria and daimonia, the Romans used bestiae and daemonia. Both Biblical passages give accounts of hordes of apes that roved about ruined places. From this it seems clear that to the ancients a demon was an ape (or similar being).''

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

It's easy to see the behemoth as being something like a hippopotamus. In fact, it's easier than seeing it as a dinosaur; everything except for the "tail like a cedar" sounds like a hippo, and even that is easily understood in different ways. The Leviathan is a little harder, but it seems like it might be a crocodile. The "kindling a fire in the deep" part is the only thing that's harder to understand in that context, and that could refer to the steam coming off of a crocodile's nose as it surfaces. It doesn't really help if you assume that it's a dinosaur in that regard. It's either a crocodile, or something we don't know anything about as of yet.

 

[granpa]

'penis' not tail
and the 'stones' are testicles

I think leviathan is probably a reference to megalodon
behemoth may just be an elephant.

Leviathan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the Talmud Baba Bathra 74b it is told that the Leviathan will be slain and its flesh served as a feast to the righteous in [the] Time to Come, and its skin used to cover the tent where the banquet will take place. The festival of Sukkot (Festival of Booths) therefore concludes with a prayer recited upon leaving the sukkah (booth): "May it be your will, Lord our God and God of our forefathers, that just as I have fulfilled and dwelt in this sukkah, so may I merit in the coming year to dwell in the sukkah of the skin of Leviathan. Next year in Jerusalem."

Typhon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekatonkheires

 

[Siyha]

It's easy to see the behemoth as being something like a hippopotamus. In fact, it's easier than seeing it as a dinosaur; everything except for the "tail like a cedar" sounds like a hippo, and even that is easily understood in different ways. The Leviathan is a little harder, but it seems like it might be a crocodile. The "kindling a fire in the deep" part is the only thing that's harder to understand in that context, and that could refer to the steam coming off of a crocodile's nose as it surfaces. It doesn't really help if you assume that it's a dinosaur in that regard. It's either a crocodile, or something we don't know anything about as of yet.

Unfortunately this theory finds little support among scholars. I have a first edition of the NLT where they actually put hippo and crocodile in the text, and footnoted behemoth and leviathan. There was massive outcry from the scholars of the world, and almost immediatly the NLT was rereleased with a variety of changes, including the swap back to Behemoth and Leviathan in the text.

If you look, for example, at the physical attributes alone of the leviathan, its possible to read it as a fire breathing crocodile; however, the scale of the beast and its place in creation far surpass that. It is impossible for man to subdue, it has no equal in all creation, its able to churn the ocean like a cauldron - these are not features of a crocodile, and work well with a mythic chaos sea monster, which also matches the physical description.

 

[shernren]

Unfortunately this theory finds little support among scholars. I have a first edition of the NLT where they actually put hippo and crocodile in the text, and footnoted behemoth and leviathan. There was massive outcry from the scholars of the world, and almost immediatly the NLT was rereleased with a variety of changes, including the swap back to Behemoth and Leviathan in the text.

If you look, for example, at the physical attributes alone of the leviathan, its possible to read it as a fire breathing crocodile; however, the scale of the beast and its place in creation far surpass that. It is impossible for man to subdue, it has no equal in all creation, its able to churn the ocean like a cauldron - these are not features of a crocodile, and work well with a mythic chaos sea monster, which also matches the physical description.

Job studies tend to swing between naturalistic and supernaturalistic interpretations of Behemoth and Leviathan over the decades. It really depends which generation of scholars happens to be alive at any given moment.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Actually, reading through the passage again, a crocodile seems to be a poor fit. The description of it breathing fire is pretty strong. Maybe it's something supernatural or something we just don't know anything about. Something like that would be my guess.

 

[Papias]

Mallon wrote:

What do you make of the fact that we're told in the psalms that Leviathan has several heads?

....... Still waiting to see what the literalist's reply is to this.......


Papias

 

[Siyha]

While I enjoy all this discussion on Leviathan, I am still curious about people's thoughts on Rahab.

 

[AnswersInHovind]

Mallon wrote:



....... Still waiting to see what the literalist's reply is to this.......


Papias

I wouldn't assume that a description of a creature in a literal context such as Job 38-40 where you have clear, acurate descriptions of certain animals would need to fit something like the poetic imagery of the Psalms.

I believe that the Leviathan in Job is a reference to both the mythic sea/chaos monster, and a literal dinosaur. If the sea monster is something people really believed in, then a giant dinosaur in the ocean would be the natural animal to attach those stories to.

This is not to say that a description elsewhere in the Bible wouldn't draw more from the mythology than the actual creature.

Lets look, for example, at Psalm 77.
Here we have the author talking quite a bit about the historical events of the exodus, with ANE imagery being drawn in the amplify it. Note verse 17, with the storm coming down on the sea and arrows flashing back and forth, something akin to Marduk's battle with Tiamat. This is not what literally happened at the crossing of the red sea.

To compare a description of a creature in the psalms with a description of the creature elsewhere does not help us understand the ladder's intent and meaning.

There are poetic elements in the book of Job, but the context of the leviathan is not one of metaphoric imagery, but rather comes on the heels of poetic - yet literal - descriptions of animals.

Why assume the leviathan is mythical when written on the heals of horses and ostriches?

 

[metherion]

While I enjoy all this discussion on Leviathan, I am still curious about people's thoughts on Rahab.

Since it was my comment that starting it, I suppose I should answer this.

Rahab IS leviathan in Hebrew mythology, in some contexts. Obviously not when referring to Egypt.

Metherion

 

[AnswersInHovind]

Since it was my comment that starting it, I suppose I should answer this.

Rahab IS leviathan in Hebrew mythology, in some contexts. Obviously not when referring to Egypt.

Metherion

So then why does the author of Job use Rahab in one spot, and Leviathan in another?