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Do you have any thoughts on the 24 elders?
Servant of the Lord;Hope you don't mind k4c, but I wanted to post some of my thoughts and some of Sister White's testimony here to open the discussion.
On Moses/Elijah: (2 Kings 2:11)
Elijah's Translation. --
Elijah was a type of the saints who will be living on the earth at the time of the second advent of Christ and who will be "changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump," without tasting of death. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52. It was as a representative of those who shall be this translated that Elijah, near the close of Christ's earthy ministry, was permitted to stand with Moses by the side of the Saviour on the mount of transfiguration. In these glorified ones, the disciples saw in miniature a representation of the kingdom of the redeemed. They beheld Jesus clothed with the light of heaven; they heard the "voice out of the cloud" (Luke 9:25), acknowledging Him as the Son of God; they saw Moses, representing those who will be raised from the dead at the time of the second advent; and there also stood Elijah, representing those who at the close of earth's history will be changed from mortal to immortal and be translated to heaven without seeing death (Prophets and Kings 227)
On Enoch: (Genesis 5:24)
Character of Enoch. –
By faith Enoch “was translated that he should not see death; . . . for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:15. In the midst of a world by its iniquity doomed for destruction Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be “redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ’s Second Advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God’s people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ. Like Enoch, they will warn the world of the Lord’s second coming and of the judgments to be visited upon transgression, and by their holy conversation and example they will condemn the sins of the ungodly. As Enoch was translated to heaven before the destruction of the world by water, so the living righteous will be translated from the earth before its destruction by fire (Patriarchs and Prophets 88, 89)
I personally interpret the Bible and SOP just as it reads. I believe we have enough proof to believe that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are alive today.
Throughout my studies I have always understood that in the NT Moses represents the Law, Elijah the Prophets.
You guys should read "The Two Witnesses" by Pastor Doug, it can be found here: The-Two-Witnesses
SotL
As far as John seeing the 24 elders. We don't know who these elders are, whether they are human or angelic, but either way, what John was seeing was not a literal reality, in other words, it's not something that was taking place as he was seeing it in vision, but rather it was something that was to take place sometime in the future. Listen carefully to the verse before it. The 24 elders that the angel showed to John was something that was to take place sometime after, it was not literally happening as John was seeing it.
Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
The angel was about to show John something that was yet to come. This vision could be a glimps into the furture of something that was to take place probably after the resurrection.
These are just some thoughts that I'm bringing to the table for other believers to insert a deeper or clearer understanding.
Sometimes other believers can see something that someone else misses. I guess there are some things that just have to be concluded even if there is no biblical support such as Moses being resurrected.
Is this statement from E.G.White's false? "Moses came forth from the tomb glorified, and ascended with his Deliverer to the City of God."
SoTL
The 24 elders are first mentioned in Rev 4 and the description given is a clue to who they may be. It says they were "clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Rev 4:4
We are told in Rev 3:5 that the saints who overcome will have on this white raiment.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The other clue is that they had crowns of gold upon their heads.
1 Cor 9:24,25
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
2 Tim 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
These 24 elders are definitely not angels and the only reference I could find to those having crowns in Heaven are the redeemed saints who also are wearing the white raiment.
As far as timeline goes, the 24 elders are around the throne of God when John sees the seven seals being opened by the Lamb. These seven seals lay our events that happened from the early church right up until the redeemed are on the seas of glass, so the 24 elders had to be present before these things took place.
Let's open it up for discussion.
Let's take a look at Moses since he is the first one we believe was given immortality. What does the Bible say?
1 Timothy 6:16 God alone has immortality...
Are we saying that God is not the only one who has immortality?
People teach that Moses was the first to be raised from the dead and given immortality, even before Jesus. What does the Bible say?
Colossians 1:18 Jesus, the firstborn from the dead...
Are we saying Jesus is not the firstborn from the dead, but rather, Moses is?
Can someone show me where Moses was resurrected and given immortality?
Didn't Moses die and was buried and to this day we no not where?
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Many of our Bibles, especially the KJV Bible, are heavily influenced by Catholic theology. Many words and thoughts are injected into translations in order to confirm certain beliefs such as see in 1 John 5:7. In order to confirm a Trinity doctrine certain verses needed to be tweaked or added to support what is taught for example, in the KJV, 1 John 5:7 goes like this.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
If you use this verse to support the Trinity you will find that 1 John 5:7 in the original does not say, "and these three are one". This would cause you to have to search somehwhere alse for support.
It's the same with Matthew 28:19. If you use this verse to prove a Trinity God you would have to find somewhere else to get proof because this too was tweaked by Papal Rome to support a belief.
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
These words, In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the exact words used in the original language. Nowhere in the Bible are we called to do anything in the name of the Spirit nor do we find anywhere in the Bible a command to baptize using this formula. The biblical command for baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ, not the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
So who added the words, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."
The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states: "It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.
The more you test, the less support you will find for certain beliefs injected in by Papal Rome.
For example, if you teach and believe in the holiday called, Easter, you are supporting a pagan belief suppoted by Papal Rome. They say Easter is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection but in fact it's not. Easter doesn't even come on the same day every year because it's not based on Jesus resurrection, but rather, sun worship. Yet, you will find the word, Easter, injected into the Bible to support that belief.
Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put [him] in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
That Catholic church use statues, which is against the second commandment. So what was done to fix that? The second commadment was taken out of the Ten Commandments and the tenth commandment was then divided into two commandments so there would still be ten.
There are many of these things all throughout Scritpure that we need to test and study to find the truth. I say all this to say this.
Regarding the 24 elders, we find these verses tweaked to sound as though they are the redeemed, they were the ones who were made kings and priests.
Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This too was done to support the belief that people are now alive in heaven, not to mention the fact that the angel tells John that what he was about to see something that was to take place in the future and was not literally happening when John saw it in vision.
So how should these verses be read? These 24 elders are not speaking of themselves as the redeemed nor are they saying they are the kings and priests, but rather, they are saying someone else is. Listen to it based on the original langauge.
Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
So you see, I have to test all things before I hold on to what is true. This is why I'm sharing these things with my brothers and sisters here to sort through truth and error.
The 24 elders are first mentioned in Rev 4 and the description given is a clue to who they may be. It says they were "clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Rev 4:4
We are told in Rev 3:5 that the saints who overcome will have on this white raiment.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The other clue is that they had crowns of gold upon their heads.
1 Cor 9:24,25
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
2 Tim 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
These 24 elders are definitely not angels and the only reference I could find to those having crowns in Heaven are the redeemed saints who also are wearing the white raiment.
As far as timeline goes, the 24 elders are around the throne of God when John sees the seven seals being opened by the Lamb. These seven seals lay our events that happened from the early church right up until the redeemed are on the seas of glass, so the 24 elders had to be present before these things took place.
>Is this statement from E.G.White's false? "Moses came forth from the tomb glorified, and ascended with his Deliverer to the City of God."
How would we determine the truth or falseness of that sentence?
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
kc4:
Wow! What really is so shocking that ECR is accepting or defending this view.
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