Who is here and where do we start?

JonMiller · Apr 15, 2008

I think that the devil's best trick is different for different people.

That being said, I think it is quite obvious that the devil isn't the source of all sin (That is too... duotheistic (not the right word) for me). Also, obviously, if the devil was eliminated this wouldn't solve the universes evil problem.

Jon Miller

Pythons · Apr 16, 2008

JonMiller said:
I think that the devil's best trick is different for different people.

Now that is something I will use in the future. It is so simple and so true.

moicherie · Apr 16, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Please demonstrate through direct quotations where anyone has suggested we consider Lucifer "the wronged and misunderstood party".

Sure sounds like one of these ....

Interesting that you would compliment a "type of thinking" you have just sought to insinuate should be shunned, or have aspersion cast upon it, by hinting it would constitute a degree of progressiveness FURTHER than what those here would be thought to currently possess. How weird, to compliment something as a method of seeking to denigrate it. Odd.

Hold that thought ...

"Regarding the GC mythos ... Lucifer has a side too, don't forget. You might not agree with it, you might even think he bes lying, etc. but he DOES have thoughts and feelings of HIS OWN about the subject of what went down concerning the "Wrong from the Beginning". Some of us believe he deserves the right to be heard just like anyone else, since after all, if you bes thinksy he just lies about everything, how could his own lies be any more unwholesome than the ones told about him instead?

However, Moriah realizes it cannot share that information in detail here (his side of things) without being accused of "promotion" so relax, it bes not "going there". If anyone wishes to know they may contact it via PM for contact info OUTSIDE of CF where we may speak freely."

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

Sorry Moichere, but Moriah still does not see anywhere in what you quote where it supposedly stated Lucifer to be the "wronged and misunderstood party". You will have to provide an actual quotation where that statement got made. Besides your own, of course. To state that someone's perspective deserves the right to be heard does not constitute characterizing that perspective as anything in particular.

It simply stated He has thoughts and feelings of His own, a basic fact of which most bes unawares, and as such, deserves the right to be heard. It did not state He deserves the right to be unquestioned, or acquitted, or anything else. It simply stated He has the right to be heard. Everyone does, whether they bes right or wrong, good or evil, justified or guilty as charged, EVERYONE has the right to have whatever judgement gets made upon them to be made upon the facts and the reality of the matter, not rumours, not hearsay, not popular spin, rhetoric, propaganda from the opposing side, etc.

To hear the way some tell it, to them Lucifer and how they approach this issue would be the same as picking out some random criminal up for charges on, say, armed robbery and manslaughter, and demanding instead that we skip the whole trial process and go straight to the conviction, and moreover, that he be convicted of murder and war crimes and whatever else we whimsically feel like ascribing to him. Only in the case of Lucifer it gets ridiculous. Your spouse cheated on you? Lucifer's fault. Your kid got molested? Lucifer's fault. Your co-workers diss you behind your back? Lucifer's fault. You lost your job? Lucifer's fault. And this coming from those what don't even bes inhabited!!! Heaven forbid we should ever stop pointing fingers at non-corporeals long enough to examine OURSELVES.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

Pythons said:
Now that is something I will use in the future. It is so simple and so true.

Indeed.

StormyOne · Apr 16, 2008

Moriah, ever read the short story titled, " The Displaced Person?"

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

StormyOne said:
Moriah, ever read the short story titled, " The Displaced Person?"

No, never heard of it. Who bes its author and where might it be found? And without giving it away in case it would like a read, what bes the gist of the story about?

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
To hear the way some tell it, to them Lucifer and how they approach this issue would be the same as picking out some random criminal up for charges on, say, armed robbery and manslaughter, and demanding instead that we skip the whole trial process and go straight to the conviction, and moreover, that he be convicted of murder and war crimes and whatever else we whimsically feel like ascribing to him. Only in the case of Lucifer it gets ridiculous. Your spouse cheated on you? Lucifer's fault. Your kid got molested? Lucifer's fault. Your co-workers diss you behind your back? Lucifer's fault. You lost your job? Lucifer's fault. And this coming from those what don't even bes inhabited!!! Heaven forbid we should ever stop pointing fingers at non-corporeals long enough to examine OURSELVES.

And here we stand with the end of days upon us, in the period of history the trad SDA doctrine ascribes to being the antitypical day of atonement, and everyone bes wondering what can be done to immanentize the eschaton, to hasten the parousia, and the answer lies right before us: release the scapegoat.

Release the freaking scapegoat already. Stop piling your sins on its head and release it.

[BIBLE]Deuteronomy 15:1-2[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Matthew 27:15[/BIBLE]

For you word study geeks ... the Greek word "release" bes
ἀπολύω (apoluō 630)
1. release [verb] -ed
to let loose from, loosen, unbind; free, relieve from; release, let go free.
The ROOT of
ἀπολύω would be λύω which means to LOOSE
as in binding and loosing things in heaven and on earth ...

Now let he who readeth, run with it!

StormyOne · Apr 16, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
No, never heard of it. Who bes its author and where might it be found? And without giving it away in case it would like a read, what bes the gist of the story about?

well I read it about 30 yrs ago, and I believe it was in a collection of H.P. Lovecraft's stories...

It goes like this....

One evening a businessman was waiting on a train to return home after a long days work. While he was sitting on the bench waiting for the train, a gentleman, dressed in a nice suit, hat, nice leather gloves and an umbrella took a sit next to the businessman. The businessman nodded and the gentleman returned the nod.

The gentleman asked where the businessman was headed and the guy said he was going home. The gentleman said wistfully, home, that is a good place to go. The businessman asked, "Where are you going?" The gentleman stated he would probably go wherever the train was going as he didn't have a home as such. That he was in exile far from his home.

The businessman asked him how did that happen, what did he do to get expelled from his home. The gentleman stated that he had dared ask a few questions and had been viewed as a threat, thus he was put out, even though he had friends and followers in his home country.

The businessman stated that seemed to be unfair, and why didn't the gentleman simply appeal to the powers that be and see if he could return home. The gentleman said that was not possible because those in power controlled everything, and that they had used that control to put out negative information about him, so that no one really knew the truth. That books had been written about the conflict, but they were all onesided and didn't tell both sides of the story.

The businessman suggested that maybe the gentleman go to the media. However the gentleman reminded him that those in power controlled the media, t.v. newspapers, etc, and that it was very very difficult to get the true story out.

The businessman shook his head and said that's too bad, and hoped that someday he would be able to get things straightened out...

The gentleman thanked him and got up and began walking away... The businessman stopped him before the man walked off and said, hey I got all this information about you and didn't even ask your name....

The gentleman as he was walking away turned and said, "my name is....

Lucifer......"

thats the gist of the story.....

RC_NewProtestants · Apr 16, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Oh but RC have you never heard that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled bes convincing the world that He did not exist?

(sorry dude, just could not resist).

But lucifer is not a term for the devil, not among Jews or the New Testament church

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

StormyOne said:
well I read it about 30 yrs ago, and I believe it was in a collection of H.P. Lovecraft's stories...

It goes like this....

One evening a businessman was waiting on a train to return home after a long days work. While he was sitting on the bench waiting for the train, a gentleman, dressed in a nice suit, hat, nice leather gloves and an umbrella took a sit next to the businessman. The businessman nodded and the gentleman returned the nod.

The gentleman asked where the businessman was headed and the guy said he was going home. The gentleman said wistfully, home, that is a good place to go. The businessman asked, "Where are you going?" The gentleman stated he would probably go wherever the train was going as he didn't have a home as such. That he was in exile far from his home.

The businessman asked him how did that happen, what did he do to get expelled from his home. The gentleman stated that he had dared ask a few questions and had been viewed as a threat, thus he was put out, even though he had friends and followers in his home country.

The businessman stated that seemed to be unfair, and why didn't the gentleman simply appeal to the powers that be and see if he could return home. The gentleman said that was not possible because those in power controlled everything, and that they had used that control to put out negative information about him, so that no one really knew the truth. That books had been written about the conflict, but they were all onesided and didn't tell both sides of the story.

The businessman suggested that maybe the gentleman go to the media. However the gentleman reminded him that those in power controlled the media, t.v. newspapers, etc, and that it was very very difficult to get the true story out.

The businessman shook his head and said that's too bad, and hoped that someday he would be able to get things straightened out...

The gentleman thanked him and got up and began walking away... The businessman stopped him before the man walked off and said, hey I got all this information about you and didn't even ask your name....

The gentleman as he was walking away turned and said, "my name is....

Lucifer......"

thats the gist of the story.....

Oh that bes just TOO cool!
It must find a copy somewhere. Awesome!!

It bes sure you all bes familiar with the notion of "pillow talk" ... those intimacies a man of greatness (whether saintly or villanous greatness) confides only to the one sharing his bed ... everyone no matter how independent, fierce and strong needs someone with whom to share the darkest most conflicted places of their hearts ... everyone knows even Hitler had a mistress ... let's just leave it there for now ...

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 16, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
But lucifer is not a term for the devil, not among Jews or the New Testament church

Jokes bes not meant to be taken literal, silly.

Telaquapacky · Apr 17, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
Oh but RC have you never heard that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled bes convincing the world that He did not exist?

(sorry dude, just could not resist).

The Devil's in the details.

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent,
but he who holds his tongue is wise.

If not for the De'il, sure an we'd be missin' some lovely Irish jigs and reels, an a hornpipe or two.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 17, 2008

Yeah? Well guess what, it will speak precisely as much as it pleases and not one word less, and it will be silent when it deems the season auspicious to silence, and not a moment before.

So there.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 21, 2008

RC_NewProtestants said:
But lucifer is not a term for the devil, not among Jews or the New Testament church

So RC clear it up for Moriah then ... you believe there bes a devil but NOT a "fallen angel Lucifer turned Satan" devil? If that bes the case, describe theologically please the devil you do believe exists -- or if you believe no devil exists, could you share the scriptures which refer to the devil or Satan and explain what you believe they mean?

Interested to know. Thanks.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Apr 21, 2008

And you too Pythons. Exactly what does the Catholic church teach about Lucifer and Satan? Same being, with the latter being the fallen form of the former? Or something different? Givesy a rundown on the Catholic take on the devil. Obviously they think the devil exists since the new Pope bes setting up all these new exorcism classes and whatnot...

AzA · Nov 2, 2008

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:
And here we stand with the end of days upon us, in the period of history the trad SDA doctrine ascribes to being the antitypical day of atonement, and everyone bes wondering what can be done to immanentize the eschaton, to hasten the parousia, and the answer lies right before us: release the scapegoat.

Release the freaking scapegoat already. Stop piling your sins on its head and release it.

[bible]Deuteronomy 15:1-2[/bible]
[bible]Matthew 27:15[/bible]

For you word study geeks ... the Greek word "release" bes
ἀπολύω (apoluō 630)
1. release [verb] -ed
to let loose from, loosen, unbind; free, relieve from; release, let go free.
The ROOT of
ἀπολύω would be λύω which means to LOOSE
as in binding and loosing things in heaven and on earth ...

Now let he who readeth, run with it!

This is the test of grace.

sentipente · Nov 23, 2008

AzA said:
This is the test of grace.

We find it very difficult to release though we love and celebrate being released.

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