Who Goes To Hell?

WebersHome said:

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The information you seek is located in post No.505
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So you see it as a biblical contradiction?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What do you suppose is meant by the phrase "not only for ours"?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

BlessedCreator said:

You forgot to mention the 2 following verses which state that those not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire along with hell.

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

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Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

agapelove said:

Hmm, who here is using canned arguments now?

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That is historical evidence of the beliefs and practices of the early church. NOT a canned argument from some anonymous dood today who doesn't know a hithpael from a hatpin, an aorist from an apple and could not locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it..

ClementofA said:

If Love Almighty doesn't save all, is it because He is lacking in power, love or wisdom? He doesn't want to, or is unable to?

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But that's just it. He can save anyone upon faith and repentance and belief on him. That's the victory and the good news. You are taking away Christ's ultimate sacrifice which upon belief and repentance we have eternal life in him. That's what faith is all about. If all God has to do is throw someone into the lake of fire, how does faith play into that? You are basically saying if Christ atoning work on the cross can't get it done before the great white throne of judgment, the lake of fire will change them.

And you're also taking away the importance of the 1000 year reign. Those that took part in the first ressurection are blessed because the second death has no power over them. The rest have to wait the 1000 years to be judged.

Saint Steven said:

I hear that over and over from the opposition. Is there any biblical basis for it?

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All throughout the bible, it's always our choice (free will) to follow God and his ultimate plan or follow Satan down his path. Are you saying we don't have a choice? And God is a heart knower, he knows who freely loves him of a sincere nature or someone who is simply giving lip service.

JulieB67 said:

All throughout the bible, it's always our choice (free will) to follow God and his ultimate plan or follow Satan down his path. Are you saying we don't have a choice? And God is a heart knower, he knows who freely loves him of a sincere nature or someone who is simply giving lip service.

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That doesn't really address the question. See your quote below.

The only reason someone would give "lip service" is out of fear. The fear that religion has instilled in them. God doesn't "need" us, nor does he need our loving approval. And without God drawing us to himself, we would never seek him. Free will has little to do with it. And is the unfortunate basis for a works religion.

JulieB67 said: ↑
... God gives us free will and wants our love willingly. He will not force it.

JulieB67 said:

But that's just it. He can save anyone upon faith and repentance and belief on him. That's the victory and the good news. You are taking away Christ's ultimate sacrifice which upon belief and repentance we have eternal life in him. That's what faith is all about. If all God has to do is throw someone into the lake of fire, how does faith play into that? You are basically saying if Christ atoning work on the cross can't get it done before the great white throne of judgment, the lake of fire will change them.

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Not at all. Those in the lake of fire will have to repent & believe to be saved just like anyone else. Being thrown into a lake of fire or a lake of water or being sprinkled by a priest doesn't save anyone.

JulieB67 said:

And you're also taking away the importance of the 1000 year reign. Those that took part in the first ressurection are blessed because the second death has no power over them. The rest have to wait the 1000 years to be judged.

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I don't know where you get the idea i am taking away the importance of the 1000 year reign. Are you a SDA? Those who get to live & reign for 1000 years while others don't should be thankful.

ClementofA said:

Not at all. Those in the lake of fire will have to repent & believe to be saved just like anyone else. Being thrown into a lake of fire or a lake of water or being sprinkled by a priest doesn't save anyone.

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Right. Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

1. God desires (and wills) all men to be reconciled.

2. God has the power to achieve His will.

3. Some sinners will never be reconciled.

One of these does not belong.

JulieB67 said:

But that's just it. He can save anyone upon faith and repentance and belief on him.

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That is a fact.

It is also a fact that the Lord IS the Saviour of all mankind: those that believe, (the elect first-fruits) known as the "especially", & the radical ALL of pas.

Every last one !

Saint Steven said:

Right. Jesus said...
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

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UR-ites quote his verse but do not understand what it means."Everyone" does not mean all mankind. Every sacrifice will be salted before it is offered but it must be without blemished before being salted.
Vs. cannot be separated from its context.
First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?
Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers only to followers of Jesus not all mankind.

FineLinen said:

That is a fact.

It is also a fact that the Lord IS the Saviour of all mankind: those that believe, (the elect first-fruits) known as the "especially" & the radical ALL of pas.

Every last one !

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1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

agapelove said:

1. God desires (and wills) all men to be reconciled.
2. God has the power to achieve His will.
3. Some sinners will never be reconciled.
One of these does not belong.

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They all belong unless you can show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and they say that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, even after death.

Saint Steven said:

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially [μάλιστα] of those who believe.

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What if the word translated "especially" should read "'most assuredly, certainly,' of those who believe."

Der Alte said:

They all belong unless you can show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and they say that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, even after death.

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Nope. It is logically impossible that all three can be true.

agapelove said:

Nope. It is logically impossible that all three can be true.

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Nope! Show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and they say that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, even after death. Just as emphatically as these verses.

Der Alte said:

Nope! Show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and they say that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, even after death. Just as emphatically as these verses.

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So you agree that it is God's redemptive purpose to reconcile all sinners to Himself, and you agree that He has the power to do so, yet you also believe that He will not do so?

Quite telling of what you think about God.

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Christ is depicted as a passover lamb. (1Cor 5:7)

Now, the trick to taking advantage of the original passover lamb's blood was to put it on the doorposts of people's homes. This is important because the supper of lamb was not what the destroyer was looking for when it came thru Egypt that night. It cared not whether the people inside were eating the lamb. It only looked for the lamb's blood where it was supposed to be.

Supposing; hypothetically, that one of the families went thru all the motions of quarantining a lamb, slaying it, draining the blood, roasting the lamb with fire, and then setting down to supper but forgot the blood. They meant to put it on the doorposts, but forgot. That night the destroyer came thru and slew their eldest son.

The thing is, they knew that the lamb's blood had power to protect their son, and they sincerely meant to apply it, but forgot. Well; that is an excellent example of the old bromide "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

The moral of my story is: Christ's blood has the power to protect people from the sum of all fears. We all know that's true because the Bible says so. And it's readily available; we know that too. But not everyone get's protected because they neglect to apply the blood where it's supposed to go-- on themselves. This is very important because each family had to apply their lamb's blood themselves. They couldn't look to Moses to do it for them.

I've been active on internet forums since 1997 and in the last twenty-three years have encountered a surprising number of folk who've never once spoken with God about the possibility of their ending up in the wrong place; nor has it ever occurred to them that maybe they ought to speak with God about it. Well; just to be on the safe side, I highly recommend that those folk invest in a starter prayer like this:

"Lord; I would like to appropriate your son's blood to protect myself from the wrath of God."

Moses' people had a narrow window of opportunity. Ours isn't so narrow, but who knows if perchance the moment of our death might take us unexpected. So get off that road of good intentions and do as I say before your number comes up of a sudden and you're a goner; taken by surprise.
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Der Alte said:

UR-ites quote his verse but do not understand what it means."Everyone" does not mean all mankind. Every sacrifice will be salted before it is offered but it must be without blemished before being salted.
Vs. cannot be separated from its context.

Mark 9:42-50
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.​

First vs. 42 begins with a warning of a fate worse than death so it hardly follows that in vs. 49 Jesus is saying all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death.
Then Jesus describes a place where the fire is not quenched and the worm of each person in that place never dies.
Then Jesus states "every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." What does that mean?

Ezekiel 43:25
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.​

Every offering must be without blemish before they are salted, they are not made "without blemish" by the fire/salt. So vs. 49 refers only to followers of Jesus not all mankind.

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Those OT verses don't speak of any people being "salted with fire" (Mk.9:49), so your conclusion is hardly proven & seems to be nothing more than speculation or guess work. Here, however, is a passage that connects people with fire:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

v. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

As for Mark 9:42-48, nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Nothing there says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

Unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A Key to Universalism


"Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24)."

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse...Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.

"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/introducing-myself/6329

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word - until - unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte said:

What if the word translated "especially" should read "'most assuredly, certainly,' of those who believe."

μάλιστα (superl. of the adv. μάλα; Hom.+).
① to an unusual degree, most of all, above all, especially, particularly, (very) greatly Ac 20:38; 1 Ti 4:10; 5:17; 2 Ti 4:13; Tit 1:10; Phlm 16; 1 Cl 13:1; Dg 1; 3:1; IEph 20:2; IPhld ins; MPol 13:1; Hv 1, 1, 8. καὶ μ. and above all, particularly (Plut., Mor. 835e; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 27; Just., D. 84, 4) Ac 25:26; 1 Ti 5:8; Hv 1, 2, 4. μ. δέ but especially (Il. 1, 16; Lesbonax Gramm. [II A.D.] p. 8 [ed. RMüller 1900]; TestAbr B 4 p. 109, 6 [Stone p. 66]; Jos., Vi. 14; Just., D. 4, 5; 48, 2) Gal 6:10; Phil 4:22; 2 Pt 2:10; IPol 3:1; Hm 12, 1, 2; Hs 8, 6, 5; 9, 10, 7. μ. γνώστην ὄντα σε since you are outstandingly familiar Ac 26:3 (cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 26 §100 ὁ μάλιστα ἐχθρός=the bitterest enemy).
② marker of high level of certitude, in answer to a question, most assuredly, certainly 1 Cl 43:6 (Just., A II, 2, 18; D. 49, 2 al.).—DELG s.v. μάλα. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 613). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

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You don't trust your pope of all scholarly sources, BDAG, who listed 1 Tim.4:10 under definition 1? And not a single Scripture reference under definition #2?

What if aionios at Mt.25:46 & most other references should be listed in BDAG under definition 1?

Der Alte said:

Nope! Show me a verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and they say that all mankind will be saved, no matter what, even after death. Just as emphatically as these verses.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

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Eventually all will be saved by Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

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