Who’s up to tackling the Trinity in depth?

BCsenior said:

Jesus was called "the Son of God" because ...
He was "fathered" by God the Word and/or God the Holy Spirit.

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This doesn't make sense. Jesus was fathered by God the Father and/or the Holy Spirit

BCsenior said:

Could John mean: sinning when in the flesh, no sinning when in the Spirit?

Please note the sin lists in the NT.
Paul says people doing these thing will NOT enter the kingdom of God.
And my favorite is Revelation 21:8 ... IMO, this applies to everyone!
Those who do any of these sins will be cast into the lake of fire.

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Yes, but only if you take into account.the special sense of flesh and spirit in passages like this. Sin isn’t caused by our bodies.

BCsenior said:

Okay, Joseph wasn't allowed to play the role of Jesus' father!
Because of his DNA?

But, Mary was allowed to pass her DNA along?

So, Jesus received only 1/2 of the normal DNA passed along from parents?
So then, how was He fully human?

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The stain of sin is passed to the next generation from Adam not Eve. That's why Jesus could not be the child of any man.

BCsenior said:

Aaaah, sister ...

The titles/names "Jesus" and "Son of God" (given by Gabriel) began at the Incarnation.

Jesus was called "the Son of God" because ...
He was "fathered" by God the Word and/or God the Holy Spirit.

John 17:5 is Jesus praying to the Father (nothing about the Son of God).

Many people today have been called and anointed by God.
Christ (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew).

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The Trinity is eternal, so God was always Father and Son. That means that in eternity, God experiences the love between father and son. (You can't completely describe God in human terms, so this is probably somewhat metaphorical.) Why is Christ said to be the incarnation of the Son specifically, and not God as a whole or the Father? Because Christ shows us the obedience love of the Son. But the point I'm trying to make is that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is the visible form of the relationship in eternity between the Father and the eternal Son. So Jesus' father is the Father, just like the eternal Son's father is the Father.

So why doesn't the Father come to Mary? As I noted, all actions of God involve all three persons. But generally the Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit when it's speaking of God's presence with us, e.g. inspiring the prophets. So it makes sense to speak of the Holy Spirit as appearing to Mary.

hedrick said:

I think they're wrong. I have two commentaries, neither of which takes this approach.

I believe they're concerned about the apparent contradiction with John's realization elsewhere that Christians do sin, and they try to resolve it by giving a shade to the meaning that isn't necessarily there. As far as I can tell from the interlinear, "sin" is an ordinary active verb. It can mean continuing action, but I think these translations are pressing that.

The context makes it pretty clear that to John, someone who is in Christ can't sin, so it would be odd for him to shade that meaning.

I suggest that what's really going on is that John understands that no one in this life is completely and always in Christ. So he really does say no one in Christ sins, but we're to understand it as being in effect "to the extent that we are in Christ, we don't sin."

Note verse 3:3, which implies that we're not yet pure.

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This is why we are commanded to walk in the Spirit. It doesn't imply just sometime, but always.

BCsenior said:

Okay, so we agree fully on the above.

Now, would you care to take a stab at ...
The Word became Jesus, but the Holy Spirit made Mary conceive!

Aaaaah ... perhaps ...
the Word made Jesus "fully God",
whilst
the Holy Spirit made Jesus "fully man".
No one has suggested this in the other recent Trinity thread.

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The Holy Spirit is the connection between man and God.

CharismaticLady said:

I have to agree with Gracia that Jesus took his "fully man" from Mary.

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He is fully man because that is the only way that we can see YHWH.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Colossians 1)
In order that the Word of YHWH could become the promised Messiah King of Israel
He had to enter the world He created, and the expression of that is Yeshua.

Prophecy concerning the Christ: Coun

BCsenior said:

While you focus on your #1 priority of Faithfully Following Jesus and His Gospel,
some of you might like to Delve Deeper into the Triune Godhead (the Trinity).
I am wondering … Does my understanding of the Trinity line up with yours?

Before the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● The Word --- John 1:1
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16 (“another”/Greek “allos”: another of the same kind, i.e. God)

The Incarnation
Gabriel said to Mary:
Luke 1:31 “… you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and you shall call His name Jesus.”
Luke 1:32 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest”
Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest
will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born
will be called the Son of God.”
Gabriel said to Joseph:
Matthew 1:20 “… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus”
Also:
Matthew 1:23 “His name will be “Immanuel (God with us)” (from Isaiah 7:14)
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”
Jesus was “the only begotten (the one and only) Son of God” (John 1:18, 3:16, 3:18)
Notes:
● The Word is definitely not the Holy Spirit.
● Jesus was called “the Son of God” because God the Holy Spirit played the role of His “father”.
● A British lady doctor told me that a baby has the DNA of both parents.

After the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● Jesus (the Word) on earth: the Son of God, Immanuel (God with us), the Messiah, etc.
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16
About 20 NT verses include all 3 “Persons” of the Trinity (in each verse).
Perhaps the shortest Trinity verse: “And I (Jesus) will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper (the Holy Spirit)” (John 14:16)

The hierarchy of the Trinity now
1 ● Father God is like the CEO, the Administrator, etc.
2 ● Jesus is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Son”.
3 ● The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Spirit”.

My questions from all of the above
● Where does “the Word became flesh” fit in with the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive?
A possible explanation … In John 14:23, Jesus says “We” will come to be with the believer.
IMO, this is another example of, “When/where you have One, you have all Three.”
● Did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive by placing a fetus in Her womb?
(If this is the case, then wasn’t this fetus a created being?)
● Was Mary’s DNA involved when the Holy Spirit miraculously caused Mary to conceive?
● Who’s in heaven now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word)? …or… the Father, the Word, Jesus?
● Who’s the Trinity now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word), the Holy Spirit?

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Prophecy concerning the Christ: Name shall be called ....Counselor, Everlasting Father. Almighty God. All three there.

Ok I can also tell you that the Trinity can be found in the first 3 verses of the Bible: I will use E-sword to show this:

The Creation of the World
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth. [Heb_11:3]

In Gen 1:1 , who are we talking about? What does the author say? Who is he referring to? He is referring to the first part of the Trinity, God the Father.

Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void or a waste and emptiness, and darkness was upon the face of the deep [primeval ocean that covered the unformed earth]. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

In Gen 1:2 What is the author saying ? What is hovering over this void? The author is talking about the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit hovering over the face of the waters

Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

In Gen 1:3 we have God saying , "Let there be light?" That is the word of God, because God said it, and it happened, so we could call this verse the word of God, and in John 1:1 the Word became Flesh, if you put it all together, you have the Trinity in the first 3 verses of the Bible.

Now lets see what F.B. Meyers has to say about Gen 1:1-5, I quote it below:

Genesis 1:1-5
BEGINNINGS
All beginnings must begin with God. Always put God first. The first stone in every building, our first thought every morning, the first aim and purpose of all activity. Begin the book of the year with God, and you will end it with the glory of the New Jerusalem. At first, as in the physical creation, your heart and life may seem to be “without form and void.” Do not be discouraged, the Spirit of God is within you, brooding amid the darkness, and presently His Light will shine through. It is the blessed presence of the Lord Jesus that stirs in your heart and will presently rule your life, Joh_1:4. His Presence divides between the good and evil. You must distinguish between Christ and self. Follow the gleam, and you shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life. God’s days begin in evenings, and always end in mornings.

Do many of you use the commentaries in E-sword?, there are so many free commentaries, dictionaries , etc in E-Sword.
Russ

BCsenior said:

(Staff Edit)
Sorry everyone for messing up the NKJV.
But, the most literal translation (NASB) says "practices" sin.
And the Amplified goes into great detail about practicing sin, habitual sin, etc.

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Well, that is all right with me. This has been the most off the wall post I've every seen you do. Besides, your true self if coming out again, as it always does. Name calling "pathetic." Wanting accuracy and politely pointing it out is not "pathetic." You may not like some woman not bowing down to you, but that's not my style.

BCsenior said:

While you focus on your #1 priority of Faithfully Following Jesus and His Gospel,
some of you might like to Delve Deeper into the Triune Godhead (the Trinity).
I am wondering … Does my understanding of the Trinity line up with yours?

Before the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● The Word --- John 1:1
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16 (“another”/Greek “allos”: another of the same kind, i.e. God)

The Incarnation
Gabriel said to Mary:
Luke 1:31 “… you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and you shall call His name Jesus.”
Luke 1:32 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest”
Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest
will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born
will be called the Son of God.”
Gabriel said to Joseph:
Matthew 1:20 “… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus”
Also:
Matthew 1:23 “His name will be “Immanuel (God with us)” (from Isaiah 7:14)
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”
Jesus was “the only begotten (the one and only) Son of God” (John 1:18, 3:16, 3:18)
Notes:
● The Word is definitely not the Holy Spirit.
● Jesus was called “the Son of God” because God the Holy Spirit played the role of His “father”.
● A British lady doctor told me that a baby has the DNA of both parents.

After the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● Jesus (the Word) on earth: the Son of God, Immanuel (God with us), the Messiah, etc.
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16
About 20 NT verses include all 3 “Persons” of the Trinity (in each verse).
Perhaps the shortest Trinity verse: “And I (Jesus) will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper (the Holy Spirit)” (John 14:16)

The hierarchy of the Trinity now
1 ● Father God is like the CEO, the Administrator, etc.
2 ● Jesus is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Son”.
3 ● The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Spirit”.

My questions from all of the above
● Where does “the Word became flesh” fit in with the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive?
A possible explanation … In John 14:23, Jesus says “We” will come to be with the believer.
IMO, this is another example of, “When/where you have One, you have all Three.”
● Did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive by placing a fetus in Her womb?
(If this is the case, then wasn’t this fetus a created being?)
● Was Mary’s DNA involved when the Holy Spirit miraculously caused Mary to conceive?
● Who’s in heaven now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word)? …or… the Father, the Word, Jesus?
● Who’s the Trinity now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word), the Holy Spirit?

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I thought you were going toward if Jesus was at creation, which he was, and has been there, and here throughout.
John 1:3 and 10
...the world made through him...
1Corinthians 8:6
Colossians 1:16
...by Him all things were created...
through Him and for Him...
And many translations, including mine, say in Jude 1:5
...Jesus having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not...
As for Mary's DNA, I suspect so although I don't think the Bible says that plainly, but it's worth investigating. But it seems to me it infers he was both God and man (or maybe it does say that plainly),
So he could actually experience what we alo experience in the flesh, so he would also have Mary's DNA.
I do not understand your other questions. Why wouldn't the Father, son (the living word), and the Holy Spirit be in heaven?
But I believe they are also pretty much everywhere, except maybe hell, although David said 'If I go down to hell you are with me...'
Loose translation there on that last one, it was from memory.

Gracia Singh said:

Yep! The Word became flesh. Yet the deity of Christ was not eclipsed or swallowed up by His humanity. He remained fully God, while being fully man.

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The Word of God, incarnate in the human nature of JC, is "fully God" by nature or essence...

but the Word of God (2nd Person of Trinity) is not "fully God the Father" (1st person) by person

This I believe is the best Trinity description I've read to date. I broke it into paragraphs for easier viewing.

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION (One of many statements on the Trinity in scripture)

CHAPTER III

Of God, His Unity and Trinity

GOD IS ONE. We believe and teach that God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true. Truly we detest many gods because it is expressly written: “The Lord your God is one Lord” (Deut.6:4). “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:2-3). “I am the Lord, and there is no other god besides me. Am I not the Lord, and there is no other God beside me? A righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me” (Isa. 45:5, 21). “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness” (Ex. 34:6).

GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, and the holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.

Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, cosubstantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

For Scripture has delivered to us a manifest distinction of persons, the angel saying, among other things, to the Blessed Virgin, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

And also in the baptism of Christ a voice is heard from heaven concerning Christ, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (Mat. 3:17). The Holy Spirit also appeared in the form of a dove (John 1:32).

And when the Lord himself commanded the apostles to baptize, he commanded them to baptize “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).

Elsewhere in the Gospel he said: “The Father will send the Holy Spirit in my name” (John 14:26), and again he said: “When the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me,” etc. (John 15:26).

In short, we receive the Apostles’ Creed because it delivers to us the true faith.

HERESIES. Therefore we condemn the Jews and Mohammedans, and all those who blaspheme that sacred and adorable Trinity. We also condemn all heresies and heretics who teach that the Son and Holy Spirit are God in name only, and also that there is something created and subservient, or subordinate to another in the Trinity, and that there is something unequal in it, a greater or a less, something corporeal or corporeally conceived, something different with respect to character or will, something mixed or solitary, as if the Son and Holy Spirit were the affections and properties of one God the Father, as the Monarchians, Novatians, Praxeas, Patripassians, Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Aetius, Macedonius, Anthropomorphites, Arius, and such like, have thought.



Heinrich Bullinger 1504-1575 THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION Trinity.