Who’s up to tackling the Trinity in depth?

[BCsenior]

While you focus on your #1 priority of Faithfully Following Jesus and His Gospel,
some of you might like to Delve Deeper into the Triune Godhead (the Trinity).
I am wondering … Does my understanding of the Trinity line up with yours?

Before the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● The Word --- John 1:1
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16 (“another”/Greek “allos”: another of the same kind, i.e. God)

The Incarnation
Gabriel said to Mary:
Luke 1:31 “… you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and you shall call His name Jesus.”
Luke 1:32 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest”
Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest
will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born
will be called the Son of God.”
Gabriel said to Joseph:
Matthew 1:20 “… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus”
Also:
Matthew 1:23 “His name will be “Immanuel (God with us)” (from Isaiah 7:14)
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”
Jesus was “the only begotten (the one and only) Son of God” (John 1:18, 3:16, 3:18)
Notes:
● The Word is definitely not the Holy Spirit.
● Jesus was called “the Son of God” because God the Holy Spirit played the role of His “father”.
● A British lady doctor told me that a baby has the DNA of both parents.

After the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● Jesus (the Word) on earth: the Son of God, Immanuel (God with us), the Messiah, etc.
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16
About 20 NT verses include all 3 “Persons” of the Trinity (in each verse).
Perhaps the shortest Trinity verse: “And I (Jesus) will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper (the Holy Spirit)” (John 14:16)

The hierarchy of the Trinity now
1 ● Father God is like the CEO, the Administrator, etc.
2 ● Jesus is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Son”.
3 ● The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Spirit”.

My questions from all of the above
● Where does “the Word became flesh” fit in with the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive?
A possible explanation … In John 14:23, Jesus says “We” will come to be with the believer.
IMO, this is another example of, “When/where you have One, you have all Three.”
● Did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive by placing a fetus in Her womb?
(If this is the case, then wasn’t this fetus a created being?)
● Was Mary’s DNA involved when the Holy Spirit miraculously caused Mary to conceive?
● Who’s in heaven now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word)? …or… the Father, the Word, Jesus?
● Who’s the Trinity now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word), the Holy Spirit?

 

[anna ~ grace]

I would strongly, strongly suggest looking into early Christian history as to how the Incarnation was understood, and how the Triune God was understood, and worshipped.

Mary conceived in her womb. Christ took His human nature fully from her. His deity (His divine nature) pre-existed the incarnation. Humanity and deity united in One Person. The Holy Spirit was the One who brought about this conception, but it was still deity uniting to humanity in her womb.

I would look into the conclusions and controversies faced at the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon. They face down these very issues, with great nuance.

 

[BCsenior]

I would strongly, strongly suggest looking into early Christian history as to how the Incarnation was understood, and how the Triune God was understood, and worshipped. Mary conceived in her womb. Christ took His human nature fully from her. His deity (divine nature) pre-existed the incarnation.
Humanity and deity united in One Person. The Holy Spirit was the One who brought about this conception but it was still deity uniting to humanity in her womb. I would look into the conclusions and controversies faced at the councils of Nicea and Chalcedon. They face down these very issues, with great nuance.

Many thanks for your advice, sister.

Re: the bold ... Do you believe that the Word (from heaven) became flesh (Jesus)?

I would suggest that ...
we in the very last of days have more spiritual revelation than they did 1700 years ago.
I'm talking in general, not on every Christian issue.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Many thanks for your advice, sister.
Re: the bold ... Do you believe that the Word (from heaven) became flesh (Jesus)?

Yep! The Word became flesh. Yet the deity of Christ was not eclipsed or swallowed up by His humanity. He remained fully God, while being fully man.

 

[BCsenior]

Yep! The Word became flesh. Yet the deity of Christ was not eclipsed or
swallowed up by His humanity. He remained fully God, while being fully man.

Okay, so we agree fully on the above.

Now, would you care to take a stab at ...
The Word became Jesus, but the Holy Spirit made Mary conceive!

Aaaaah ... perhaps ...
the Word made Jesus "fully God",
whilst
the Holy Spirit made Jesus "fully man".
No one has suggested this in the other recent Trinity thread.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Okay, so we agree fully on the above.

I also want to emphasize that this is not a conclusion that I came to simply by pouring over my Bible, alone. On my own, I would have no idea how to tackle this. At all. This the conclusion the earliest Christians came to when asked / faced with this same question, in the first several centuries of Christian history. Just wanted to make that clear. So, this isn't me. I agree with it, but it's basically Church councils. God bless you, brother.

 

[BCsenior]

I also want to emphasize that
this is not a conclusion that I came to simply by pouring over my Bible, alone.

As always, I appreciate your humility.
IMO, almost all of this should be obvious from the Scriptures.
And we have the Holy Spirit to help us!
He was sent to lead us into "all (spiritual) truth".

It is the other than the "almost all" that I am curious about.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Okay, so we agree fully on the above.

Now, would you care to take a stab at ...
The Word became Jesus, but the Holy Spirit made Mary conceive!

Aaaaah ... perhaps ...
the Word made Jesus "fully God",
whilst
the Holy Spirit made Jesus "fully man".
No one has suggested this in the other Trinity thread.

I have to agree with Gracia that Jesus took his "fully man" from Mary.

 

[BCsenior]

Okay, Joseph wasn't allowed to play the role of Jesus' father!
Because of his DNA?

But, Mary was allowed to pass her DNA along?

So, Jesus received only 1/2 of the normal DNA passed along from parents?
So then, how was He fully human?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Okay, Joseph wasn't allowed to play the role of Jesus' father!
Because of his DNA?

But, Mary was allowed to pass her DNA along?
So, Jesus received only 1/2 of the normal DNA passed along from parents?

No, friend. Because God had to become incarnate; in flesh. A human father and a human mother would have made a human. Not the incarnate Word.

 

[BCsenior]

God had to become incarnate; in flesh.

I don't even know what "incarnate" means.
BTW, why are you still called a newbie?

 

[anna ~ grace]

I don't even know what "incarnate" means.

Ok. It literally means "in flesh" or "in a body".

 

[BCsenior]

Gracia: God had to become incarnate; in flesh, in a human body.

So then, why did the Word become flesh (John 1:14)?
Nothing to do with Mary.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Okay, Joseph wasn't allowed to play the role of Jesus' father!
Because of his DNA?

But, Mary was allowed to pass her DNA along?

So, Jesus received only 1/2 of the normal DNA passed along from parents?
So then, how was He fully human?

There is a bigger picture for us here that you are missing. Are we not fully human? Even as a born again of the Spirit human being? Jesus was fully human but was conceived with the seed of the Father. Therefore, even though He was fully human, He could not sin, just as we who have been born again of the Spirit have received the seed of the Father and cannot sin. 1 John 3:9

Jesus was tempted, just like us, but before being born again, I fell into the temptation, but after being born again, I was empowered to resist.

 

[Basil the Great]

The most difficult part of the Trinity doctrine is that is does not easily conform to the Judaism's Shema, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is One".

 

[BCsenior]

Are we not fully human? Even as a born again of the Spirit human being? Jesus was fully human but
was conceived with the seed of the Father. Therefore, even though He was fully human, He could not sin, just as we who have been born again of the Spirit have received the seed of the Father and cannot sin.
1 John 3:9 Jesus was tempted, just like us, but before being born again, I fell into the temptation,
but after being born again, I was empowered to resist.

Nope, sorry!
1 John 3:9 is talking about continuing to sin (see the Greek), as in habitual sinning!
Jesus did not sin at all ... never ever did He sin!
IMO ... being fully God, Jesus could resist all sin and be sinless!

 

[anna ~ grace]

Gracia: God had to become incarnate; in flesh, in a human body.

So then, why did the Word become flesh (John 1:14)?
Nothing to do with Mary.

Mary conceived in her womb. Conception means something specific. Mary's body supplied the humanity of Christ. The Word became united to flesh through Mary, by the grace and work of the Holy Spirit. And the Word became Man. Hence, Christ Jesus. Hope that helps!

 

[Dave L]

While you focus on your #1 priority of Faithfully Following Jesus and His Gospel,
some of you might like to Delve Deeper into the Triune Godhead (the Trinity).
I am wondering … Does my understanding of the Trinity line up with yours?

Before the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● The Word --- John 1:1
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16 (“another”/Greek “allos”: another of the same kind, i.e. God)

The Incarnation
Gabriel said to Mary:
Luke 1:31 “… you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
and you shall call His name Jesus.”
Luke 1:32 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest”
Luke 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest
will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born
will be called the Son of God.”
Gabriel said to Joseph:
Matthew 1:20 “… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus”
Also:
Matthew 1:23 “His name will be “Immanuel (God with us)” (from Isaiah 7:14)
John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”
Jesus was “the only begotten (the one and only) Son of God” (John 1:18, 3:16, 3:18)
Notes:
● The Word is definitely not the Holy Spirit.
● Jesus was called “the Son of God” because God the Holy Spirit played the role of His “father”.
● A British lady doctor told me that a baby has the DNA of both parents.

After the Incarnation
1 ● Father God --- John 1:1
2 ● Jesus (the Word) on earth: the Son of God, Immanuel (God with us), the Messiah, etc.
3 ● The Holy Spirit --- John 14:16
About 20 NT verses include all 3 “Persons” of the Trinity (in each verse).
Perhaps the shortest Trinity verse: “And I (Jesus) will pray to the Father,
and He will give you another Helper (the Holy Spirit)” (John 14:16)

The hierarchy of the Trinity now
1 ● Father God is like the CEO, the Administrator, etc.
2 ● Jesus is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Son”.
3 ● The Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father because He calls Him “My Spirit”.

My questions from all of the above
● Where does “the Word became flesh” fit in with the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive?
A possible explanation … In John 14:23, Jesus says “We” will come to be with the believer.
IMO, this is another example of, “When/where you have One, you have all Three.”
● Did the Holy Spirit cause Mary to conceive by placing a fetus in Her womb?
(If this is the case, then wasn’t this fetus a created being?)
● Was Mary’s DNA involved when the Holy Spirit miraculously caused Mary to conceive?
● Who’s in heaven now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word)? …or… the Father, the Word, Jesus?
● Who’s the Trinity now? … the Father, Jesus (the Word), the Holy Spirit?

You seem to support the incarnate sonship view of the trinity which I believe is big with AOG churches. The historic church supported the eternal sonship view of the trinity which I believe is closer to scripture.

 

[BCsenior]

You seem to support the incarnate sonship view of the trinity
which I believe is big with AOG churches.
The historic church supported the eternal sonship view of the trinity
which I believe is closer to scripture.

Sorry Davey, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I couldn't care less what the early churches believed,
or what the churches today believe!
IMO, they are all found wanting.

I could only care less what the Scriptures say, and what the Holy Spirit says!

So, I care about what y'all believe these 2 sources are saying to us today.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry Davey, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Google it. "incarnate sonship" vs "eternal sonship".