JacktheCatholic
Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
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AND
Also as a bishop not the Universal leader.
IrenauesIrenaeus
"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).
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Jack,A Pope is a Bishop.
Again, I do not understand what you are saying???
Jack,
There is nothing in the first 150 + years after Christ that gives any indication of Universal authority belonging to the Bishop of Rome, Rome says its known for all ages.
IT wasn't!
It doesn't have any bearing.One question for you.
How do you understand the Keys that Jesus gave Peter?
It doesn't have any bearing.
Attach it to Rome!
Here is the point...My only understanding of the importance of Rome has to do with Peter (and Paul). Peter is buried there. Peter was the bearer of the Keys. Peter passed the Keys to Linus. Rome became the principal location of the church at that time.
But the Keys definitely have something to do with it.
Irenaues
universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice also Peter and Paul again.
Here is the point...
Out of hundreds and hundreds of early writings, none made this claim yet your church claims
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm
Vatican Council I: Pastor aeternus
First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ
Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. "So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the Church which he once received" [47].
There is no room for development. According to this the first person to succeed Peter would primacy over the whole church.
This did not happen. None of the quotes show that the person who succeeded Peter and Paul in Rome,
or Peter in Antioch was viewed as being the successor of the whole church. All of the quotes about Peter and Paul
relate only to Rome and nothing about the universal church. Because Catholicism claims, which Christians who also trace
their roots as far back as you guys disagree, that Rome has primacy for Catholicism now, which no one denies of course,
they tend to project their beliefs back to that era. What is most important is THEY are saying it Peter and Paul, not me guys.
Yes, based upon what they are saying, I do think they viewed them equally.
He also said:
"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church."
The foundation of the church...
This, to me, shows they are building the principal church here.
And why not? After all this is where most every early martyr was martyred.
And Irenaeus said:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
As I mentioned already in post 62....And Irenaeus said:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the succession of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church [of Rome], because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3, 3, 2).
Lineage isn't the same as universal authority!And...
"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the letter to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded . . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherius. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us" (ibid., 3, 3, 3).
Lineage isn't the same as universal authority!
And again it never in the early church is written that the universal authority came from Peter ALONE!
As I mentioned already in post 62....
This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice also Peter and Paul again.
Clip from the first verse and then 59 chapters later? You have removed 59 previous chapters of context."The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth"
From his epistle to Corinth. And why was a letter coming from Rome to Corinth? Becuase Rome is where the Seat of Peter is and where the Bishop with the Keys (Pope) is. If it was Antioch as some might suggest then a letter to Corinth should have come from Antioch but it did not.
Also written:
Pope Clement I
"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians1, 5859, 63 [A.D. 80]).
All I am reading is that they maintained Apostolic Tradition. This does not take away from The Pope being in Rome have a Supreme authority.
At least I do not see how it could???
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