Which OT laws should I obey?

tonychanyt said:

We are not communicating.

How do you operationally decide which laws to obey?

This is the 2nd time I have asked.

Click to expand...

Again, by looking at what God’s laws have instruct and determining whether they can be obeyed in my situation, such as with the example that I gave.

Bob S said:

All of the laws that God ever gave to the Israelites were not given to all mankind. That is a fact. How could our perfect God give anyone an immoral law? Some of the perfect laws given to Israel were never given to the remainder of mankind.

Click to expand...

Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel. If the nations didn't need to obey the Mosaic Law, then there would be no point in the promise or in spread the Gospel to the nations and the nations wouldn't need salvation.

Bob S said:

You mean like only Israel's weekly Sabbath, new moon celebrations and feast days?

Click to expand...

The Bible does not list not which laws are part of the Ritual Law and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they thought were part of the Ritual Law, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the Bible as though its authors were referring to a list of laws that they just created.

Soyeong said:

Israel was given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel. If the nations didn't need to obey the Mosaic Law, then there would be no point in the promise or in spread the Gospel to the nations and the nations wouldn't need salvation.

Click to expand...

Please show us where Israel was given the commission of being "a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel".

Soyeong said:

The Bible does not list not which laws are part of the Ritual Law and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to create lists of which laws they thought were part of the Ritual Law, then they would end up with a wide variety of lists and none of those people should interpret the Bible as though its authors were referring to a list of laws that they just created.

Click to expand...

God gave us a brain that enables us to reason. That said, we know that some laws given to Israel only were for how they were to treat their fellow man, some for how to treat God and some to teach how God wanted them to observe certain days. Some laws told the Israelites what days were special. Some laws were for the Levites, and some were governing laws.

Bob S said:

Please show us where Israel was given the commission of being "a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel".

Click to expand...

I don't think the Scriptures were written for the Nations Israel went through, or that they were a Light to those Nations. These Scriptures pertaining to the Exodus were written for men born "After those days", after the Coming of the Prophesied Priest. As Paul tells those interested in God's Truth.

I Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent "we" should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (Created their own high days) 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: "and they are written" for "our" admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore (Because of this Truth) let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

And again;

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For "our sakes", no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Bob S said:

God gave us a brain that enables us to reason.

Click to expand...

Here is what the Christ actually teaches about men, which would include you and I.

Before HE became A MAN.

Jer. 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Here is what HE said after HE became a man.

John 4: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

So you may have a brain and have the ability to reason but choose to reject God's Judgments over your own, as your posts clearly show. It seems therefore, that the Christ of the Bible was right, both before and after HE became a man and dwelt among us. This I have confirmed in myself because I believed what HE says enough to be a "Doer" of His Word and not a hearer only. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds "may be made manifest", that they are wrought in God.

In this way I am broken, and there is a cost, but what remains is a New Man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"

Bob S said:

That said, we know that some laws given to Israel " homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you" only were for how they were to treat their fellow man, (Not telling their fellow man lies about God) some for how to treat God (Not telling lies about God and His Word) and some to teach how God wanted them to observe certain days. ( Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.) Some laws told the Israelites ( "homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you") what days were special. Some laws were for the Levites, and some were governing laws.

Click to expand...

So since God had all this written for me, either as Jew or Non-Jew, and HIS Son warns of men who call Him Lord, Lord, but "are actually deceivers", it seems prudent to read and listen to what is actually written in the God inspired Scriptures, and not those men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Bob S said:

Please show us where Israel was given the commission of being "a light and a blessing to the nations by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel".

Click to expand...

In Matthew 4:15-12, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to HIs commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because his children did that in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, and in Psalms 119:1-3, the Mosaic Law is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Bob S said:

God gave us a brain that enables us to reason. That said, we know that some laws given to Israel only were for how they were to treat their fellow man, some for how to treat God and some to teach how God wanted them to observe certain days. Some laws told the Israelites what days were special. Some laws were for the Levites, and some were governing laws.

Click to expand...

Indeed, while we can use our brains to categorize God's laws however we want, we should also use our brains to recognize that we shouldn't assume that the authors of the Bible agreed with us about which laws best fit in which categories or even that they used the same categories.

Saying that God gave some laws to Israel only is the equivalent of saying that those laws were only given to the followers of the God of Israel. The God of Israel has given instructions to Israel for how to follow, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him, so those who want to do those thing will follow those instructions, while it is contradictory to do those things while refusing to follow the God of Israel's instructions for how to do them.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 4:15-12, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

Click to expand...

Your explaining has not answered my question and I believe you know it doesn't Soyeong. While Israel was a nation, under God's covenant to them, there is nothing that comes close to what you are trying to teach. Be careful what you write because you could very well confuse someone.

Soyeong said:

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised.

Click to expand...

Once again you are assuming. There is nothing about God commissioning Abraham to do what you are falsely teaching. By the way Soyeong, Abraham was not a Jew.

Soyeong said:

In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to HIs commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because his children did that in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Click to expand...

So, the question is: did they follow what you tell us they were taught? Have you read the story of Joesph? Have you read the story about the golden calf? Have you read the story about all who came out of Egypt were not allowed to enter the promised land?

Soyeong said:

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him,

Click to expand...

Not true, read the verse in context. Jesus told them "You are doing the works of your own father.” not the works of Abraham. The verses have nothing to do with spreading the old covenant to all nations. I shake my head as to why you keep trying to hornswoggle us with scripture that has no meaning to the subject.

Soyeong said:

and in Psalms 119:1-3, the Mosaic Law is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Click to expand...

Abraham didn't have the Mosaic Law. Your statement does not make any sense and it certainly adds nothing to the subject of Israel's supposedly commission to spread the old covenant to all nations.

Soyeong said:

Indeed, while we can use our brains to categorize God's laws however we want, we should also use our brains to recognize that we shouldn't assume that the authors of the Bible agreed with us about which laws best fit in which categories or even that they used the same categories.

Click to expand...

Are you following your own advice?

Soyeong said:

Saying that God gave some laws to Israel only is the equivalent of saying that those laws were only given to the followers of the God of Israel.

Click to expand...

God is the God of all mankind. God did give Israel laws that only pertained to them. That is a fact. Passover is a glaring example.

Soyeong said:

The God of Israel has given instructions to Israel for how to follow, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about Him, so those who want to do those thing will follow those instructions, while it is contradictory to do those things while refusing to follow the God of Israel's instructions for how to do them.

Click to expand...

Come again!

the law is for transgressors, transgression is done by no faith, Jesus did not continue always in debates with Pharisees, but gave HIs life to the crooked disputers, because of having the law of life, now go and understand what this means to your "discussions"


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Clare73 said:

Paul answered the question in Ro 13:8-10.

Click to expand...

Good job , Clare73 as we are to be IMITATORS of Paul in 1 Cor 11:1 !!

dan p

Peacemaker1 said:

the law is for transgressors, transgression is done by no faith, Jesus did not continue always in debates with Pharisees, but gave HIs life to the crooked disputers, because of having the law of life, now go and understand what this means to your "discussions"


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Click to expand...

If someone says that the law is only for transgressors in order to justify their freedom to be a transgressor, then they thereby become someone that the law is for. Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were, and he never criticized the for obeying it, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so he quoted the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ. In Romans 8:3-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

Studyman said:

Col. 2: 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ "from the rudiments of the world", why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines "of men"?

You are making a fundamental error here, according to the doctrines and traditions of this world's religions. First, You are implying that Paul is Judging God's Commandments and Judgments as "Rudiments of this world". Paul isn't doing that. Even a child would understand, after reading the Words of the Jesus of the Bible, that the mainstream religion of that time, the religious sect of the Pharisees, were teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men, not the commandments of God. They had, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". These manmade commandments included washing in a certain way before eating. Not serving milk and meat at the same table.

Jesus tells us this, if men would just believe Him.

Mark. 7: 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Paul is saying the same exact thing, "Touch not; taste not; handle not", after the commandments and doctrines "OF MEN".

The deceiver would have us believe that God's Commandments "Are Rudiments of this world" or that we should demean Him and reduce HIS Words to that of Evil men, like the Pharisees. This world's religions always do this, but Paul never does this. He teaches "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good".

Paul teaches that the men who are promoting these doctrines and commandments of men are those who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". He warns of men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, but are really deceivers.

So I hope you might consider the error on your part here. Your thread is, Which "OT" laws should men honor God by obeying.

Paul "Specifically" identifies for you in Colossians 2 that these "Ordinances" are not "Commandments of God", but Rudiments of this world and Commandments of MEN.

I know we both have been taught from our youth, by "Many" religious sects and businesses, all of whom "come in Christ's Name" and call Jesus Lord, Lord, that Paul is speaking of God's Commandments here. But if you read it for yourself, it is clear he is not. I'm hoping you might reconsider your adopted religious philosophy regarding Col. 2 here, and simply accept for yourself that what is written, is God's Truth.

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

It is simply undeniable Biblical Truth that Jesus obeyed His Father's Commandments, not the religious doctrines and traditions of the world God placed Him in. Paul is clearly teaching here in Col. 2, that we abide by the same Philosophy. "Let no man judge thee"!!!

I will address the rest of your OP in another post.

This is a great topic, and one that should be discussed, in my view.

Click to expand...

And you wrote Col 2:8 and Col 2:16 says , Therefore , do not let ANYONE judge you in eating or in drinking or in respect

of a feast day or a new moon or SABBATH !!

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And you wrote Col 2:8 and Col 2:16 says , Therefore , do not let ANYONE judge you in eating or in drinking or in respect

of a feast day or a new moon or SABBATH !!

dan p

Click to expand...

Why did Paul say not to let any men judge me, who has "Yielded myself to God", and my body as instruments of Righteousness unto God, for obeying God's righteous instruction, over the religious traditions and philosophies of the world God placed me in?? Here, let me show you what Paul's reasoning was.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow "of things to come" but the body is of Christ.

This world's religions, "many" of which call Jesus Lord, Lord, reject God's Judgments concerning "meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" and have created instead, their own judgments, high days, and religious traditions which cause those who adopt them to "Transgress God's Commandments". These worlds religious judgments and traditions are shadows of nothing to come.

We are warned about this very over and over.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one "that walketh after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.

Jesus also warned of the same thing.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Paul warns about the exact same thing in Col. 2:8.

"Beware lest "any man" spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ.

The entire Bible knows and teaches that both you and I are placed into a world, just as Eve, where "other voices" exist that promote philosophies and traditions that are against us, and not out of the mouth of God. And like this "other voice" that deceived Eve, they will "Profess to know God" and even quote some of His Words. Paul is teaching the faithful in Colossians not to let these popular religions "Spoil them" as it spiled the Pharisees. My hope is that you will consider what Paul is actually saying. Not what the "Many" who have "Transformed themselves" into Apostles of Christ teach, but what is actually written.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

This is why Paul honored God's Sabbaths, and taught men to "Keep the Feast", and taught;

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.