Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Yes, I use YLT often along with about 28 others. The YLT is good for certain things but is atrocious at others.ra123 said:Palehorse, ever hear of the Young's literal translation? I don't have it but it translated it there good, http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=28&version=yng&Go.x=18&Go.y=10
Oblio said:I think the CITE request was for Christians holding the ceremonial Sabbath Law from the Resurrection until today. Not 70 references to the word Sabbath in the NT.
Wordy, but hardly addresses the issue. Besides, God did set aside one particular day of the week to remember Him as our Creator.BigNorsk said:The dichotomy of Sunday Sabbath vs. Saturday Sabbath is a false dichotomy. It is not one or the other, all days are Sabbath to the Christian.
The Sabbath as was observed under the Law is but a shadow of the Sabbath that was to come, the Sabbath of being in Christ. The old Sabbath brought no real rest, for the Sabbath was Law, the very observance of that Sabbath was a work, an observance of Law. Can one rest and work at the same time? No, so the Sabbath of the law was a Sabbath on some levels, but on the spiritual level it was as much a work of the Law as any other part of the Law.
To substitute Sunday for Saturday is to turn to another ordinance, one which cannot bring rest, for it is no more a true Sabbath than the Sabbath in the Law.
Christians are are not under the Law, we shouldn't substitute a new law for the old, we should honor God by doing as he would have us do. We are warned about placing ourselves back under law, Galatians 3:1-5 NET
(1) You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified!
(2) The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
(3) Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
(4) Have you suffered so many things for nothing? if indeed it was for nothing.
(5) Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?
So plain yet people still hunger to be under law, Jesus didn't need to die to put us under the law, to pick law over his gospel does not honor him. Both those arguing for Saturday Sabbath and those for Sunday Sabbath are picking Law over Gospel.
Let us turn to Hebrews, the book written to those most likely to misunderstand the purpose of the Law and to believe that they needed to observe the Law to receive salvation.
Hebrews 4:1-16 NET
(1) Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it.
(2) For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in with those who heard it in faith.
(3) For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my anger, 'They will never enter my rest!' " And yet God's works were accomplished from the foundation of the world.
(4) For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,"
(5) but to repeat the text cited earlier: "They will never enter my rest!"
(6) Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.
(7) So God again ordains a certain day, "Today," speaking through David after so long a time, as in the words quoted before, "O, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts."
(8) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken afterward about another day.
(9) Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
(10) For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works.
(11) Thus we must make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.
(12) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.
(13) And no creature is hidden from God, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.
(14) Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.
(15) For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.
(16) Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help.
Verse one starts out with a mystery, how could the Hebrews who faithfully observed the Sabbath fall short of God's rest? We start to receive the explanation in verse 3, those who believe enter the rest, as you read the next few verses, you see that the Hebrews never received the rest even though they observed the Sabbath.
Verse 7 is a key verse, it tells us the Sabbath day, it is "Today". Now does that mean that is only applies to whatever day of the week this verse was written? No, of course not, each and every day is a Sabbath day to the Christian. Saturday is, Sunday is, so are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, those days are all Sabbath days.
Verses 8-10 tell us a rest remains, that we get to cease our labors, just as God ceased his. The old Sabbath would almost seem as if God got to the 8th day and started all over again with his labors. That would be how people freed from the Law through Jesus Christ who turn away from his works and once agains substitute their own unworthy works behave.
The rest of Chapter 10 is an exhortation on how to behave under our freedom from the law. We enter that rest given us by our Lord and we go to him, not the Law, to receive mercy and grace.
Man needs rest, to put him under a law, whether it is a law of Saturday Sabbaths or Sunday Sabbaths, steals that rest from him.
Marv
PaleHorse said:Yes, I use YLT often along with about 28 others. The YLT is good for certain things but is atrocious at others.
ra123 said:Palehorse, ever hear of the Young's literal translation? I don't have it but it translated it there good, http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=28&version=yng&Go.x=18&Go.y=10
Mikecpking said:...Also see Romans 14:5-6, "One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day does it for the Lord. The one who eats, eats for the Lord because he gives thanks to God, and the one who abstains from eating abstains for the Lord, and he gives thanks to God."
Thoughts anyone?
PaleHorse said:Wordy, but hardly addresses the issue. Besides, God did set aside one particular day of the week to remember Him as our Creator.
Thanks for the copy/paste however.
Ethiopian orthodox church
PaleHorse said:Cool, and I'm very happy to do so.
I answered this already, Mary was observing the Sabbath prior to the Resurrection, so there was no Lord's Day to celebrate on.
13From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. 14From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. 15After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak."
Of course St. Paul entered the Synagogue on the Sabbath, that is where and when the people were gathered together!!!
3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek (Acts 16:3)....
2As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ," he said. (Acts 17:2-3)
Again St. Paul was preaching the gospel to the Jews, in the synagogue, because that is where is auidence was!
78+3+3+1+1 = 86 total
And that's just the ones that are directly mentioned!
In the NT there are only 9 verses that mention Sunday, the first day of the week. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that all of them were relgious gatherings (which they weren't) - considering the numbers, what day is normative for Sabbath keeping?
Of course St. Paul was preaching on the Sabbath day, that is when they were gathered together! So your number theory is flawed to say the least.
It is called context...makes a world of difference!!!
PAX CHRISTI
TrustAndObey said:I don't have a lot of Catholic friends unfortunately, so I really don't know the answer to this question and I'm asking with sincerity. Is it even possible to have a sola scriptura conversation with a Catholic?
It is not secret knowledge that in 321, Constantine decreed, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed" (Codex Justinianus lib. 3, ***. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1). Constantine seems to have made this change himself and not through the papacy, since the "papacy" had not really come in to being at that time. The papacy grew gradually out of the office of Bishop and for many years this was centered in Rome. In any case, it should be noted that in doing this, Constantine is not changing the Sabbath; he is merely making Sunday the official day of rest for the Roman Empire. His motivation was probably not born out of hatred for the Jews (it's hard to say for sure why Constantine or any historical figure did what they did) but out of adoption of the practice that Christians had already been doing for nearly two and a half centuries.
Oblio said:The other reason why there was a secular proclamation of that which was already practiced from the beginning is that it allowed all who wished to worship to do so by relieving the working class from their obligations on Sunday. Obviously this had to be administed from the emporer and not Church heirarchy.
BigNorsk said:The dichotomy of Sunday Sabbath vs. Saturday Sabbath is a false dichotomy. It is not one or the other, all days are Sabbath to the Christian.
Grace is nothing without a law. What is 'grace' to you?BigNorsk said:The issue is confusing Law and Gospel, you can thrash around all you want and try to focus on one part or the other but any discussion of the Sabbath and our relation to it as Christians comes back to that.
No, God said "to day" to not harden your heart.God set aside "Today" to remember Him as our Creator. The observance of one day as a day of rest is the shadow of the rest to come. To preach the observance of the shadow instead of the real rest is to distort the Gospel.
Sorry, Marv, it just looked like you might have copied it from a webpage and the thoughts expressed therein where not you own. I'm sorry for my mistake on that.I did include the scriptures by copy/pasting but I did not copy/paste the post. Are you saying you would prefer just verse references and not the text in posts?
Oblio said:Incorrect, and a commonly held myth. The Apostolic Fathers record that it was Christ and His Apostles that taught the principle of Sunday worship. Christians were worshipping on Sunday for 300 years before St. Constantine. Further, St. Constantine did not establish any Christion canons or traditions but rather called the first Ecumenical Council where the Church decided issues.
Isaiah 53 said:Possible, yes...but it is not valid unto itself.
PAX CHRISTI
Cliff2 said:During the past year many threads have been opened up concerning the Sabbath.
There are a few points that we could probably look at in some detail.
Such as these.
Was the Sabbath kept before the Law was given to the Children of Israel?
Is the Sabbath really Jewish and there for not binding on Christians today?
If there are other points that need to be brought up then by all means do that.
Debi has kindly consented to help out in this discussion by transfering information from other threads as she sees fit to do so.
Thanking you in advance for your help.
TrustAndObey said:Whoa wait...the Bible isn't valid without what exactly? I want to make sure what you're saying before I answer.
OOPSIES..... WOW .... umm sorry I totally misread that at the time please forgive me for what was put hereoldsage said:Hello, Debi,
My name is Chris, and I thought I have a go with replying to some of the comments you have in your post.
It doesn't say that Peter has the same power and authority of God, else Peter could say it is ok to worship other gods and God would have to honor that.
Yes and who was it that he delivered up out of the Land of Egypt? The Isrealites or the Gentiles?Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
Well let us see, God the Father was their judge and our judge is the Son our Redeemer, Christ.... That is what was meant by that, it seemed pretty clear to me at the time. My other Brethren even understood this premise when I brought it out to them and acknowledged it.I am not sure what is meant by this.
This is true and thus where my exegesis comes from .... now due to the inconsistensies of the calendar over the years in the Jewish calendar .... do you see where I am going with this....While this would be true but if you read in Ex 16 when God showed them which day was the Sabbath, it had nothing to do with a Calendar nor tradition, because they have forgotten the Law of God for the most part. God had the Mana fall down for 6 days and then on the 7th no Mana fell and told them it was a Sabbath to the Lord, then in Ex 20 gave the law, and they understood the Sabbath to be the Seventh Day according to the cycle God has shown them.
OK... no problem....I would like to see this passage, thank you.
Let us see what does new mean as opposed to old ....hmmm I think it would mean that the new is different then than the old otherwise then there would be no need for anything new would there?The New Covenant differs how from the Old?
Yes, whereas it was mostly before about preforming ceremony. Does not anyone read the Bible and see the difference in the way God handled things in the Old testament as opposed to the New testament.... hmm does this not give a clue.... Before judgement was poured out upon them then at the time of their infraction against the Lord. Whereas now, what do we see? We see that His mercy is greater and His hand of Justice not so swift to act readily at the minute. GRACE!!!!!Isn't it the Laws not being in our hearts?
There has always been a mediator. Where did this distinction that the Christ's role has changed or the Father's role has changed? All this was planned from the foundation of the world.
He did simply thank you when he said you shall Love your neighor as yourself and Worship God .... this about covers everything doesn't it because if you Love your neighbor as yourself you will not want to do anything to them that you would not want done to you....Can you show all the Commandments Christ repeated, I don't think He repeated them all.
Which we observe....I am going to assume you are talking about The Lord's Supper? It is Passover, done once a year.
You are Right and exactly the point I was trying to make it had nothing to do with the calendar whatsoever it had to do with a command given by God to the Isrealites as a Covenant with them, a mark if you will...Here is the problem with this line of thought, Sabbath is counted like this..day 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath, day 1,2,3,4,5,6, Sabbath. Now, we put a calendar in the picture, it is still counted the same, we can mix the days up, flip the months and all sorts of things to the calendar, but the 1,2,3,4,5,6,Sabbath cycle remains the same, it has nothing to do with the calendar.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?