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Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

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tall73

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Yes, why did he rebuke those who kept it? For keeping it? For keeping the law? No, He rebuked them for laying loads on people that they could not bear and not lifting a finger to help. These loads were of their own design. If you want to make an argument about the Sabbath then Jesus is not the place to start. You are better off looking at the apostles. Jesus clearly reformed Sabbath keeping just as he reformed adultery, stating that lust was just as bad, and murder, saying that hate is just as bad, etc. Jesus taught the spirit of the law which goes beyond the letter. He restored the law to the heart where it belonged.


Many are making much of the old covenant/new covenant concept. But they don't really talk about what they think those are.

A covenant is simply an agreement on both sides which is binding. The first covenant was given at Sinai.

Here are the promises on both sides:



EX 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 `You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

EX 19:7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the LORD had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD.



The covenant was that the people agreed to do all the Lord commanded, and He agreed to bless them, and make of them a holy nation.

The problem with the first people was not the requirements of God. The problem was with the people. They didn't keep their promises. This is affirmed by Hebrews:

Hebrews8:6 The ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

HEB 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people


The covenant requirements of the moral law were not the problem. In fact, Paul says that the law was holy and good. He said it was spiritual, but he was unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. The problem is always with our sin, our broken promises, not with God. So God gave a new covenant:


The new covenant still has that same old law! But now it is not external tablets in stone, but written in the heart. It is not the legal written letter, but the law of love lived out in the heart, willingly.

Does this do away with grace? Not at all. Because Paul is quite clear that we are saved by grace, that we obey by that same grace of God's Spirit living in us. In fact he says it is we who keep the law fully, not according to the written code but according to the Spirit.

Much has also been said about the Sabbath not being a commandment before. This is true. But then neither were the other commandments. We see no record of God commanding not to kill, etc. But Cain still knew it was wrong to kill his brother. Jacob knew it was wrong to steal his brother's blessing, etc. The point is that the law was first in the heart. As people fell further from God He spelled out the baseline, but the spirit of the law has always gone beyond that. Jesus came to restore the spirit of the law, and to re-internalize it in the heart. If we live according to the Spirit then we naturally do what He requires.
 
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tall73

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With the exception of the verse talking about Sodom etc. these were all verses speaking of the end time judgement. Which was precisely Palehorses' point. He didn't say there was no hell. He said there was no hell YET. As to the Sodom text, they did serve as an example. How? Because they were destroyed. Not in hell but in fire from heaven, for all to see.


Moreover, if hell is where all the wicked go then why are some in the sea?
 
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TrustAndObey

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2 John 1:6 - And this is love, that we walkafter his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walkin it.

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
- Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus kept the Sabbath commandment. In fact, He fought vehemently against the Pharisees for trying to force their manmade traditions on God's holy day.

Why would Christ go through all this trouble of fighting the Pharisees if He knew that the Sabbath commandment would be the ONLY one that would be abolished?

Jesus made future prophecies about the Sabbath day.

We're told to walk as He walked....well, what day did He keep holy? What day did He rebuke the Pharisees for trying to "lord" their own rules on? What day did He make future predictions about?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We know the Sabbath was not nailed to the cross. We know His Own mother kept the Sabbath commandment after He was nailed to the cross. We know the disciples kept the Sabbath after He was nailed to the cross. We know that ALL flesh shall come before God on the Sabbath to worship Him on the new earth.

There is no commandment in the Bible to keep Sunday holy or that it is the "new Sabbath". When we're told to do something in the Bible, it isn't just implied....it is very clear.

The argument keeps coming up that Sabbath-keepers are legalistic and putting themselves under the law. Come on, did Jesus teach legalism when He told us to keep the commandments of God?

Matthew 15:9 - But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
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tall73

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Hebrews 4 Study

To get to the meaning I have made a review of the general content of each chapter so as to outline the themes. The overall theme is simply that Jesus is superior to their previous understanding in every way. They should not fall away from the faith entrusted to them. They are warned not to return to Judaism, or fall away due to persecution, but to cling to Jesus. Jesus touches on the key figures in the Jewish mind, Moses, Abraham, angels, Aaron, etc. and Jesus is superior to them all. To fall away from Him would be worse than to fall away from the first covenant.

The meaning of chapter 4 should be in line with this overall theme.

A. The Letter Summarized

Chapter 1:
Jesus is superior to angels. They are ministering spirits, He is the Son.

Chapter 2:
A warning against falling away from the message they had heard

Jesus made like unto his bretehren. He is able to help them when tempted (to fall away)

Chapter 3:
Jesus was better than Moses. Moses was faithful in all of God's house. But Jesus was the Son, to whom all the house belongs. We are the house.

Another warning against falling away. If today you hear his voice do not harden your hearts. Their possible rebellion against God's will is compared with the people in the exodus, who at first left Egypt but were later punished for unbelief.

They are to encourage each other daily to avoid hardening by sin.

Chapter 4: - to be examined further below

Chapter 5:
A priest must be called

Jesus a High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the source of eternal salvation for all who believe

The Hebrew believers are not able to comprehend, because they are still spiritual infants, though they ought by now to be teachers. They have not spiritually matured. They need basics rather than the teaching about righteousness.

Chapter 6:
A call to not fall away. The strongest yet. It will be impossible for those enlightened ones who have drunk of the Spirit, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. They will have crucified Jesus again by denying Him publicly.

An illustration is given of a worthless plot of land that takes in rain but never produces. This is a picture of the recipients, who have received blessings from God but have not grown, and are in danger of falling away. But better things are hoped for in their case. They should continue to the end.


Abraham was patient and received what was promised God swore by Himself with an oath. They too have assurance from God.

Chapter 7:
Return to the High priest theme. Melchizedek received tithe from Abraham, had no geneology (was without beginning and end), was called the king of righteousness, and the king of peace and remains a priest forever. He did not descend from Levi. Levi figuratively paid the tithe through Abraham. He was greater than Abraham as the lesser is blessed by the greater.

The levitical preisthood did not bring perfection. Jesus was not of the line of Aaron but of the line of Melchizedek. He was both King and Priest. The Lord made Him a priest forever, not on the basis of lineage, but His indestructible life. He does not offer sacrifices over and over for His own sin and others, but one sacrifice for all time, Himself.

Chapter 8:
Jesus is the High Priest of the true tabernacle in heaven, of which the earthly was a copy.

Jesus' ministry is superior to that of the other priesthood, and his covenant is better.

The old covenant was based on bad promises because the people did not keep them. God therefore made a new covenant. The law was written on the heart and mind, and God forgave their sins, and made them His people. It was not dependent on their promises.

Chapter 9:
A review of the worship in the earthly temple, including a brief layout of the grounds. Particularly the Day of Atonement service is treated. Only the high priest went into the most holy place, once a year. Jesus went through the real tabernacle as high priest. He cleanses us with better sacrifices than cleansed the earthly temple.

Jesus is in charge of a better covenant. Just as blood was necessary for a will, Jesus' death and blood initiated the new covenant.

Jesus died once to take away sin and will return again not as a sacrifice but to bring salvation.

Chapter 10:
Sacrifices are not the reality, they are an annual reminder of sin. Jesus' once for all sacrifice provided salvation and the new covenant.

A call to persevere in light of our great High Priest and the salvation He brought. They are not to forsake meeting together.

Those who continually sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice for sin left.

He calls to mind the early days of the faith of the recipients when they were persecuted, lost possessions etc. They should not shrink back and be destroyed, but endure and receive what is promised.

Chapter 11:
Heros of the faith are outlined, all of which endured by faith. They did not receive what was promised, but now it is revealed in their time.

Chapter 12:
We are to follow Jesus who ran the race before us, and endured persecution.

Hardships are discipline from the Lord of His sons.

Instruction on holy living.

They are not come to the mountain of fire, trembling in fear, but to Mount Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city of God, to joyful assembly. They should not refuse God, as those who refused on earth did not escape.

Chapter 13:
Closing reminders and calls to obey leaders, holy living, reminders of Jesus' sacrifice etc.

B. The context of chapter 4.

Chapter 3 begins the thought that is continued in chapter 4. So a closer look is warranted.


As Moses was seen as the law giver and friend of God the author wanted to make plain that Jesus is superior to him as well. Moses was a servant of God, Jesus is the Son, over all the house.


Here a scene is reviewed from the experience of Moses, through the vehicle of Psalm 95. The exodus experience is in view when the tribes failed to go up and take the promised land. The whole generation died in the wilderness, even though they had left originally in faith. In the same way the ones who were now in danger of falling away had taken their stand for Jesus but now were in danger of falling away.



It is those who disobey who are in view. Again, an encouragement to the recipients not to emulate them.

C. Chapter 4

The promise still stands today to enter God's rest. In context, this would be belief and the reward it brings. They are to enter by faith, staying firm to the end, which is where the earlier fell short.


God is seen as resting from the beginning of creation. He waits for people to enter that rest. The issue here is simply that God is resting, and waits for others. The view is not that God rests only one day a week, but has been in continuous rest since that time.


Joshua led the people to the promised land. But the psalm still said there was a rest to enter. So therefore the rest was not fulfilled just by entering the promised land. It is the promise of salvation. Salvation is ultimately entering into God's rest which He has been in since creation. It is ceasing from our own works, and living by faith–the opposite of what those who doubted and died did.

The invitation is open to them today. It is the day of decision. But if they fall back they will suffer the same fate as those who fell in the wilderness.


Those who are in danger of falling away should remember the example of those who fell in the desert. They cannot hide from God.


Jesus is able to help, being tempted as we are. They need not fall away.

D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which changes it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus).

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.

The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.
 
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Montalban

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Part of the trick here is by getting people to agree to the false construct that one can only argue from the Bible... as if the Bible authenticated itself.
 
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Debi1967

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Now it is odd that you reference a heretic as your source.
The work was written before he became a Montanist and therefore the Church does use his earlier works and recognizes them as valid....Just because later on in life the man changed his thought does not mean that all of his writings are then tainted and therefore we should not gleen what we can from the writings that are not heretical in nature.... This is the same with the earliier teachings of Luther before the reformation and before he officially became a herestic within the Church we still look to them and we still accept them as writings that are acceptable teachings to go to.

Tertullian did not embrace montanist thinking until several years after this .... therefore your argument is moot........
 
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Debi1967

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Abraham and David were saved by grace (Romans 4). Salvation has always been by grace.
We are Saved by Grace but salvation is another matter altogether as this is the coperative interlacing of Faith and Works as it is said Faith without Works is Dead .....

But lest we boast our works are always for the Glroy of God and not ourselves and there is not way to earn our way into Heaven.... This is truly a gift always will be and always shall be ..... but the belief of some that that works just automatically come upon belief in God is an illusion.... because we are sinners so therefore it is in us to want to sin, and it is therefore a constant fight to work against that to do the work of the Lord in order to glorify him, this does nto always come naturally....
 
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oldsage

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Montalban said:
The Orthodox Church
you and the Romans differ



Can you show in the bible either with example or precept the idea of Apostolic Succession? and is the Pope equal to the Bishops of the Eastern Church? How do we check to see if a Bishop is in the faith or is teaching the truth? Where is the standard that we can see to insure people are not leading others astray, either on purpose or ignorantly?

Chris

In other words, Jesus founded the church; AND this is the church that gave you and I the Bible.[/QUOTE]
 
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oldsage

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TrustAndObey said:
Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I just wanted to add not all translations agree here, most translations have:

NAB Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city (1 )through its gates.


but there are other supporting verses for your case, this doesn't derail it.

Chris
 
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TrustAndObey

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You're the Greek go-to guy Chris, what do you think it says?
 
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TrustAndObey

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oldsage said:
personally I think the robe washing is correct, it has better support and makes better since of salvation

The exact same Greek words are used in other verses that are translated to "commandments".

So all I have to do is keep up my laundry and I'm good to go? (You know I'm kidding).

Tall73 said:
The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.

I asked this in another forum, but could you please show another instance of sabbatismos being used in the Bible?

You refer to "other" times it means something other than this instance in Hebrews 4. What "other" times are you referring to?
 
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oldsage

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TrustAndObey said:
The exact same Greek words are used in other verses that are translated to "commandments".

So all I have to do is keep up my laundry and I'm good to go? (You know I'm kidding).
they are different greek words
 
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tall73

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It is not moot at all. You pick and choose in your own tradition. Just as you picked Ignatius' comment about Sunday, but ignored that he still kept the Sabbath. And you pick the comments of Tertulian when he is considered orthodox, but dismiss him...though he is still an important figure for understanding his time, after he turns to a different view of the Trinity.

The tradition shows a progression here, just as it did with papal succession. The records don't even agree who the early popes were, in what order they came, etc. And even Catholic sources show that they were a list of bishops or elders, not called popes until a later time.

These teachings were not handed down, they were pulled out by later generations. Generations who were selective, and worked according to their goals.
 
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TrustAndObey

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oldsage said:
they are different greek words

I don't have Greek font loaded on my computer or I'd type out what the original Greek is. I went to www.blueletterbible.com and went into the original language, and clicked on all instances that those words were used. They were always translated to commandments (the keeping of them).
 
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tall73

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TrustAndObey said:
I asked this in another forum, but could you please show another instance of sabbatismos being used in the Bible?

You refer to "other" times it means something other than this instance in Hebrews 4. What "other" times are you referring to?

I am referring to extra-biblical information. As you know, it occurs once in the Bible. But in any case, the word is determined by context, not by simply a definition or even contemporary use. There is nothing in the context to suggest that the rest they are entering into is the weekly Sabbath. There is much to suggest it is the rest of faith from works, salvation.
 
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TrustAndObey

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All the extra-biblical information I have seen personally clearly states that sabbatismos is the seventh day Sabbath rest.

Maybe we should compare notes?
 
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tall73

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Montalban said:
Part of the trick here is by getting people to agree to the false construct that one can only argue from the Bible... as if the Bible authenticated itself.

Since you quoted my last segment of my Hebrews 4 study in making this comment I will ask the following:

A. Have you presented any extra biblical material that I should be considering in my analysis of Hebrews 4? If so I must have missed it.

B. Did I make the argument in this section that we should only consider the Bible? In fact, my argument has been to show that tradition too shows a progression of ideas about the Sabbath.

C. I have made the claim in another post that the Bible should test later writings. And this is quite true. What is established as from God should test that which is not established, and which comes after.

D. Since it was your own church that made the scriptural canon why do you argue against it as though it were a bad thing? Do you disagree with the church in elevating the Scriptures as foundational documents, written by inspiration of God?
 
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