Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

Oblio · Nov 21, 2005

Cliff2 said:
Through out history many have still been Sabbath keepers.

St Patrick was a 7th day Sabbath keeper.

I may have missed it but where is the documentation of this, including the means in which they 'kept the Sabbath'.

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

Oblio said:
I may have missed it but where is the documentation of this, including the means in which they 'kept the Sabbath'.

Sure, I'd love to help:

From: http://www.truthontheweb.org/patrick.htm
"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labor. They obeyed the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." (James C. Moffatt, D. D.,The Church in Scotland, Philadelphia: 1882, p.140)
"In this latter instance they seemed to have followed a custom of which we find traces in the early monastic church of Ireland by which they held Saturday to be the Sabbath on which they rested from all their labours." (W.T. Skene, Adamnan Life of St. Columba, 1874, p.96)

As noted above, the Christianity which first reached France and Britian was of the school of the apostle John, who ruled the churches in Asia Minor. Colonists from Asia Minor laid the foundations of the pre-Patrick church. They brought with them the doctrine which they received of John, Paul, Philip, and the other apostles of the Lord, which included not only the observance of the seventh day Sabbath, but also the commemoration of Christ's death upon the 14th of Abib--Passover!
"It is probable that the primitive Christians kept the Pasch on the 14th of Nisan as determined by the Jewish authorities, and regarded it as the anniversary of the crucifixion. ...The churches of the Roman province of Asia...followed the older custom, keeping the Pasch on the 14th of Nisan, whatever the day of the week." (James F. Kenney, The Sources for the Early History of Ireland, Vol.1, pp.211, 212; Columbia University Press, New York, 1929)
"...they ignorantly refuse to observe our Easter [Pascha] on which Christ was sacrificed, arguing that it should be observed with the Hebrew Passover on the fourteenth of the moon." (Bede, Historia Ecclesiastica, II, 19 wherein Bede quoted "Pope" John's words concerning the Celtic brethren)

More on this site, along with links to supporting documentation. <click>

Here's a little more. <click>
(a small excerpt)
The primitive type of Christianity prevailed, however, in many parts of the world, and was never wholly crushed.It was early planted in the British Isles, and here the Sabbath was kept to a late date. The evidence that St. Patrick kept the Sabbath is not to be despised. The church in Ireland was evangelical, and accepted the Scriptures as the rule of life, and repudiated Rome. Patrick's successor, St. Columba, observed the Sabbath as a day of rest, but held worship on Sunday.A church or society of Sabbath-keepers persisted in Ireland to the middle of the last century, and included in its membership members of the nobility, as well as peasants.
What has been said of Ireland is equally true of Scotland. In commending Queen Margaret of Scotland as a Christian ruler of the eleventh century, history says she was successful in establishing the observance of Sunday. "For until that time the Sabbath was the day of rest."Sunday was observed as a day for worship, but not as a day of cessation from labor.

And one more, just for fun <click>
The Celtic church were Sabbath keepers of Scotland and Wales. St. Patrick, Columba and Columbanus, as well as the real King Arthur were champions of the Sabbath. (See the book entitled Truth Triumphant by Wilkinson). Missionary work of this church helped bring Europe out of the dark ages. The Catholic Church captured the European monasteries established by the Celts and placed her Benedictine monks in them, and then claimed it was her act that brought spiritual enlightenment to Europe.
St. Patrick, born in southern Scotland and raised in the ways of the Celtic Church, was captured in his youth and taken to Ireland as a slave. "Here, in slavery, he gave his heart to God and, after six years of servitude, escaped, returning to his home in Scotland...but he could not forget the spiritual need of these poor heathen, and after ten years he returned to Ireland as a missionary of the Celtic Church." Facts of Faith, Christian Edwardson, p.134,135. That St. Patrick was a Sabbath keeper can easily be affirmed by a study of the practices of the Celtic Church.

Don't you see? Sunday observance started AFTER the Gospels went out to the world. Saturday (the seventh-day) has been Sabbath (whether they observed it or not) throughout the world in nearly all early societies. Sunday observance is a comparatively new invention. Just look at the various world languages and this becomes apparent:
(click here for a more comprehensive listing)
Language -------------- Word for Saturday ------------ Meaning
Latin (Italy) ------------- Sabbatum --------------------- Sabbath
Spanish (Spain) ---------- Sábado------------------------ Sabbath
Portuguese (Portugal) ---- Sabbado----------------------- Sabbath
Italian (Italy) ------------ Sabbato----------------------- Sabbath
French (France) ---------- Samedi ----------------------- Sabbath day
High German (Germany) --- Samstag ---------------------- Sabbath
Prussian (Prussia) --------- Sabatico --------------------- Sabbath
Russian (Russia) ----------- Subbota --------------------- Sabbath
Afaghan ------------------ Shamba ---------------------- Sabbath
Hindustani ---------------- Shamba ---------------------- Sabbath
Congo (West Equatorial Africa) -- Sabbado or Kiansbula ---- Sabbath
Coptic (Egypt) ------------- Pi sabbaton ------------------ the Sabbath

The list goes on and on.

SassySDA · Nov 21, 2005

PaleHorse said:
Then you are denying scripture, as such, I cannot give any weight to your words.

Nor can I.

SassySDA · Nov 21, 2005

spirit1st said:
You understand?JESUS CHRIST IS THE NEW TESTAMENT.But it could not take full affect until HE died.As well as many things.HE had too be the 1st at.Like going to NEW JERUSALEM.He had to go up 1st.Then we could follow.Which we do.as soon as we dump these old bodys!Now HE is The 2nd adam.The 1st being formed of the earth or dirt.The 2nd a spiritual being.Nothing like we see in the flesh!Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
because we are now made like this city.perfect and enternal.This is our home now.forever.we kinda just visiting here.
I think?one of our main problems,we are used to judging all things,by what we see?But this is wrong judgement.

Personally? No. I don't understand. Your written communication skills leave a lot to be desired, as far as my being able to read and follow it. Try some punctuation with some spaces between sentences? I honestly don't even try, anymore to read it. I could be missing something important too, simply because when I try to read your posts, the sentences blur together and I give up.

SassySDA · Nov 21, 2005

Sophia7 said:
I believe that the Sabbath commandment, just like all of the other commandments of God, should be written in our hearts and minds; that is what the new covenant is all about:

Actually, under the old covenant, the law was supposed to be internalized as well; salvation was always about grace, not about keeping the law externally with no spiritual conversion:

The old covenant was not the law; it was the agreement that God made with His people at Mount Sinai, when God spoke His law directly to the people and then wrote His law on tablets of stone, which He gave to Moses. The people promised to obey Him, and they confirmed the covenant with the blood of bulls (Exodus 24). God's promise to them under the old covenant was that if they obeyed Him, He would bless them, and if they disobeyed, He would curse them. (See Leviticus 26 for a description of the covenant curses and blessings.)

The problem with the old covenant was that the people never followed through on their promises. They did not understand how the law was supposed to be kept--through grace. They did not trust God or keep His laws in their hearts. They sometimes followed the external regulations, even gradually adding to them and making them impossibly burdensome, which is why Jesus had to remind people of what the law of God was really about--loving God and loving our neighbors. What they missed was what many people today overlook as well--the fact that doing the right things doesn't make us righteous:

When we accept Jesus, He transforms our minds and makes His laws a part of our character. He recreates us spiritually in His image. That is what being born again is all about. We still keep the law but it is through the grace and power of God, not through our own willpower and effort:

Therefore, the new covenant is sealed by Jesus, not by us. Hebrews 8:6 says that the new covenant is founded on better promises than the old covenant. Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary after His resurrection and confirmed the new covenant with His own blood, not with the blood of bulls or goats (Hebrews 10). It was founded on His promise to engrave His law on our hearts rather than on stone tablets. Jesus perfectly fulfilled the law, which requires a sacrifice to save a sinner from the death penalty, in a way that no animal sacrifice could ever do. The sacrificial system dealt with the consequences of breaking God's law. Jesus' death put an end to the need for sacrifices because He paid the penalty for every violation of His law. His death did not put an end to the law itself; rather, it opened the way into the heavenly sanctuary so that we could have full and direct access to the grace and power of God that keeps us from sinning:

The Sabbath is important because it is a part of God's Ten Commandments. I agree with GraceInHim's quote:

The Sabbath is about loving and honoring God, not about staying in our houses and keeping the lights off and eating cold food and sitting around doing nothing and being bored and miserable. If that's what we thought, then it would be legalism. Unlike the Pharisees of Jesus' time, we do not have a code of acceptable Sabbath activities that everyone is supposed to adhere to. Jewish tradition dictated that people couldn't carry food between two houses on Sabbath unless they stuck a plank between them to connect them so that they would be considered one house. Jewish tradition dictated that people couldn't walk more than a certain distance (about 3/4 mile) unless they had buried food ahead of time at intervals so that they could consider those places their homes. Jewish tradition dictated that people couldn't even carry a handkerchief unless they sewed it to their clothing. The Sabbath was never meant to be about that, even under the old covenant. The Sabbath was always intended to be a time of spiritual communion with God, not a burden of physical restrictions. That's why Jesus cut through all of the legalism of the Jewish teachers and showed them what the Sabbath was supposed to be about, making them so angry that they wanted to kill Him:

I believe that the Sabbath is a time to worship God and to help others, as Jesus did; this is not to say that we shouldn't worship God all the time, but the Sabbath is a holy day set apart (sanctified) by God at creation. The difference between worshiping God on Sabbath and worshiping Him on other days is that on Sabbath we rest from our jobs and our secular activities (although there are differences of opinion among Adventists as to what kinds of activities are acceptable on Sabbath) and devote ourselves fully to God, without the outside distractions that often preoccupy our time during the rest of the week. Thus, the Sabbath is not meant to be a burden or a legalistic way of trying to earn salvation, but a blessing from God to help us draw closer to Him. Here is a quote from Isaiah 58, which I think conveys the attitude that God wants us to have toward the Sabbath:

The Sabbath is about finding joy in the Lord, and it's easier to do that when we can completely focus on Him and not have to think about going to work and cleaning our houses and paying our bills and grocery shopping and all of the other activities that normally take up most of our time and cause us to push God into the background. Beyond physical rest, the Sabbath is most importantly a time of spiritual rest and renewal, a time of thanksgiving for the grace that God has given us.

sister!! Beautifully spoken.

Debi1967 · Nov 21, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If you own a Bible, you are not in a time of ignorance. No one has any excuse not to seek after and know the truth.

It's a catch 22 to tell someone to examine something, knowing they will find out the truth eventually, because then they ARE accountable to it.

Have fun at church!

No one has to right to interpret the Scripture either to his or her liking ..... Jesus left but ONE Church for such a thing not many.... and therefore not many interpretations....

Cliff a couple of pages ahead acknowledges that you have to go beyond Scripture to find the Day of the Sabbath. Yet Christ whom you say observed the Sabbath also chastized those that kept it and worked on the Sabbath and was chastized for this himself because He Himself was breaking the Law.... So were the apostles.... Jesus because He performed works on the Sabbath by healing and preaching and the apostles because they often would travel on the Sabbath day ....

For as much proof as you have that the Sabbath was observed on Fri/Sat before the Death and Ascencion of Christ there is just as much proof that it was observed after that on Sat/Sun by the Apostles and their followers.... In commemoration of the God that walked among them....

The Sabbath in the New Testament Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm

Meaning of the Sabbath The Sabbath was the consecration of one day of the weekly period to God as the Author of the universe and of time. The day thus being the Lord's, it required that man should abstain from working for his own ends and interests, since by working he would appropriate the day to himself, and that he should devote his activity to God by special acts of positive worship. After the Sinaitic covenant God stood to Israel in the relation of Lord of that covenant. The Sabbath thereby also became a sign, and its observance an acknowledgment of the pact: "See that thou keep my sabbath; because it is a sign between me and you in your generations; that you may know that I am the Lord, who sanctify you" (Exodus 31:13).But while the Sabbath was primarily a religious day, it had a social and philanthropic side. It was also intended as a day of rest and relaxation, particularly for the slaves (Deuteronomy 5:14). Because of the double character, religious and philanthropic, of the day, two different reasons are given for its observance. The first is taken from God's rest on the seventh day of creation: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, . . .and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it" (Exodus 20:11; 31:17). This does not mean that the Sabbath was instituted at the Creation, as some commentators have thought, but that the Israelites were to imitate God's example and rest on the day which He had sanctified by His rest. The Sabbath as the sign of the Sinaitic covenant recalled the deliverance from the bondage of Egypt. Hence, in the second place, the Israelites are bidden to remember that they were once slaves in Egypt, and should therefore in grateful remembrance of their deliverance rest themselves and allow their bond-servants to rest (Deuteronomy 5:14-15). As a reminder of God's benefits to Israel the Sabbath was to be a day of joy (Isaiah 57:13) and such it was in practice (cf. Hosea 2:11; Lamentations 2:6). No fasting was done on the Sabbath (Judith 8:6) on the contrary, the choicest meals were served to which friends were invited.

Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2; in Apoc., i, 10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead". ( oh but this is the Barnabus that trveled with the apostles himself the very same one that walked and ate with the first apostles of Christ offering more proof here)

St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they ment together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi). These and similar indications show that during the first three centuries practice and tradition had consecrated the Sunday to the public worship of God by the hearing of the Mass and the resting from work. With the opening of the fourth century positive legislation, both ecclesiastical and civil, began to make these duties more definite. The Council of Elvira (300) decreed: "If anyone in the city neglects to come to church for three Sundays, let him be excommunicated for a short time so that he may be corrected" (xxi). In the Apostolic Constitutions, which belong to the end of the fourth century, both the hearing of the Mass and the rest from work are prescribed, and the precept is attributed to the Apostles.

SassySDA · Nov 21, 2005

debiwebi said:
So therefore, even if I am wrong, God is going to judge my heart and then judge me by the works of that heart condition .... So If I have accepted Christ as my Saviour and I have been baptized by The Water, The Blood and the Spirit then I have properly confessed my heart and all the things that I know in my heart to be wrong and not to God's Glory then this is what I shall be judged by ..... I believe in heart that I uphold the Sabbath in observing it on the Lord's Day because the Lord is God and therefore whether it be Saturday or Sunday makes no real difference as long as I set aside a Day of thanksgiving unto the Lord for His Work for me and for His Sacrifice for me on the Cross .... Therefore I am observing the Decree set by God .....

Where or where did all of this confusion and the great debate between "GRACE" and "LAW" come from???????

We don't earn grace, it is a gift that Jesus offers us and we either accept Him and that gift, or we don't. Therefore we don't "earn" our way to heaven by accepting His grace either, we do not EARN our way there period.

Follow me so far?

As T&O has said, very eloquently here, AND many other times as well, keeping the commandments is just ONE of the ways we show Him that we LOVE HIM.

Works does NOT equal salvation, and it never will.
Salvation, however does equal works.

Being saved, accepting Christ recreates us. It's an automatic tranformation that comes over us. You cannot have Jesus in your heart, and the will to sin as well. That wouldn't do any better than trying to mix oil with water...IT DOESN'T WORK.

Let me try this....

Before I was saved, I had a tremendous "potty mouth". Every other word that came out of my mouth was profane. When people heard me talking like that, do you think they looked at me and said, "there goes one of Jesus' children"? I highly doubt it.

Immediately upon my salvation, and I do mean immediately, my "potty" mouth was scoured out, and not by me. I just noticed one day, that I wasn't cursing anymore - AT ALL. I know that my neighbors saw other changes in me as well, as I had begun (without any concerted effort of my own) to follow God's commandments by loving others. I cannot tell you how many folks said to me, "you look RADIANT today", "there's a glow about your face". What they were seeing, was Jesus' evident consumation of my life AND therefore my "works".

The ten commandments are not burdensome and grievous like Moses Law was. His laws just seemed to keep growing and growing out of control. The 10 commandments have remained the same, AND just 10 of them since God wrote them on those tablets of stone on Mt. Sinai.

The 10 commandments are a "mirror". Yes, that's right, I said a "mirror". I look into them daily to see whether or not I am or have been sinning. I want to know each morning that my salvation and works are matching, just as I look to see that my blouse and skirt are matching before heading out the door.

God bless

SassySDA · Nov 21, 2005

No one has to right to interpret the Scripture either to his or her liking ..... Jesus left but ONE Church for such a thing not many.... and therefore not many interpretations....

Of course no one has the right to interpret scriputre to their own liking, but it is also just as dangerous to leave that interpretation to one person...who may or may not have misunderstood it. No one has the right to tell you, "I'VE READ IT FOR YOU AND THIS IS WHAT IT SAYS", either.

God wants us to read His book for ourselves. It's not in the least mysterious, once you get passed being brainwashed that you simply CANNOT understand it. "It's not for your pretty little head to worry about" said the preacher. That preacher wasn't truthful with me when I was a child, and if he's still alive, he's probably still preaching the error he was then.

If the catholic church, who professes to be Christ's one and only church, taught STRICTLY FROM SCRIPTURE, I wouldn't be a Seventh-day Adventist, I'd be catholic. Problem is, they don't. I have had too many catholic faithful say to me, and I quote, "Tradition is more important than scripture", for it to have simply been some wild notion that one person started as a rumor. Someone somewhere is teaching them that.

I have a college education, I am of average to above average intelligence. English was my best subject, and I won numerous awards for reading and reading comprehension skills in school. When I realized that I could read the bible, and even better when the Holy Spirit was there to help me, it was like being let out of prison. God's word is truth, and once you get a taste of it, just like Lays Potato chips, you can't eat just one book or chapter or verse, you can't stop until you have read them all, and then start at the beginning - all over again.

God Bless

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

debiwebi said:
No one has to right to interpret the Scripture either to his or her liking ..... Jesus left but ONE Church for such a thing not many.... and therefore not many interpretations....

I disagree in that He left a church to interpret such things...I'm Protestant, as such I reject the notion that Peter was given the right to change the laws of God.

Cliff a couple of pages ahead acknowledges that you have to go beyond Scripture to find the Day of the Sabbath. Yet Christ whom you say observed the Sabbath also chastized those that kept it and worked on the Sabbath and was chastized for this himself because He Himself was breaking the Law....

Whoa! Are you saying that Christ sinned? You are not differenciating between what Christ said was "lawful" and with the accusations of the Pharisees.

So were the apostles.... Jesus because He performed works on the Sabbath by healing and preaching and the apostles because they often would travel on the Sabbath day ....

Which was contrary to the Pharisee's directions for Sabbath observance, NOT the Commandment of God. Christ didn't break the Sabbath - He broke it free. Free from the false-traditions that the Pharisees has heaped upon it. God made the Sabbath a blessing, a delight, not a burden - and that is what Christ was correcting.

For as much proof as you have that the Sabbath was observed on Fri/Sat before the Death and Ascencion of Christ there is just as much proof that it was observed after that on Sat/Sun by the Apostles and their followers.... In commemoration of the God that walked among them....

Bizzzzt! Sorry, but I've yet to see church services being observed on Sunday in the NT. Every point of "proof" offered for this has been summarily shot to pieces.

The Sabbath in the New Testament Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matthew 23:4),

Right, by the traditions they heaped upon it - not for the Sabbath itself - please re-read the account given in Matt 23. Christ was showing them the right way to observe it.

...and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27).

Right, because its God's holy day - man cannot change it.

He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matthew 12:3 sqq.; Mark 2:25 sqq.; Luke 6:3 sqq.; 14:5).

Right, Christ showed what was "lawful" on the Sabbath - He didn't violate it or do away with it.

St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 4:9-10; Romans 14:5).

Oops - wrong sabbaths being talked about in these verses. Don't forget that the feasts (which pointed to Christ's coming) were also called "sabbaths" but were not the same as the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. (see Lev 23)

The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.)

Refuted all over the place.

Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2; in Apoc., i, 10, it is called the Lord's day.

Ummm.... the NT also says the apostles "broke bread" every day (Acts 2:46). Breaking bread is not indicative of Communion - they were eating a meal! If you read the account given in Acts 20 you'll read that they broke bread TWICE during this meeting - because it was a long meeting and they needed to eat. Also, something that most miss is that if you read the story further youll find that Paul starts out on Sunday morning for his trip; he walks 30 km and then buys a boat ticket! Now, if Sunday had been any kind of holy day then Paul would not have been traveling nor purchasing anything on that day.

While I'm quite aware of the redemptive associations of the Sabbath, Hebrew 4:9 is a statement of fact (from Paul) that the seventh-day Sabbath remains for Christians.

Seriously, you would do well to stick to your church's position that Sunday observance is not founded in the Bible but was changed by the Catholic church herself.

The following post will help answer many of the points already addressed:
Meaning of Hebrews 4 (as it relates to Sabbath keeping) Post #342 or HERE for a more detailed examination.

Oblio · Nov 21, 2005

Don't you see? Sunday observance started AFTER the Gospels went out to the world.

No I don't see that. I've presented primary source documents that state that Apostolic Fathers were taught by Christ and His Apostles to worship on Sunday.

I was hoping for primary sources rather than published opinions that support your contention of a continuous Sabbath Law keeping by Christians from the Ressurecction until the present day.

Oblio · Nov 21, 2005

Right, because its God's holy day - man cannot change it.

Where was it changed, and by who ?

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

To recap - here are the main arguments given for either Sunday observance or that Sabbath was done away with. This is just a partial list of the all the rebuffs that have taken place to show how the arguments are flawe

Argument #1:

The Sabbath was for the Jews.

o It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made 2,300 years before Jews existed, right at creation. Genesis 2:2-3

o The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God" or my Sabbath (meaning Gods Sabbath). Men should be cautious how they stigmatize God's holy rest day.

o Mark 2:27 - And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

(Made for who? MAN! That is a silly way to spell Jew or Israelite.)

o God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it. Isaiah 56:6,7

Argument #2:

That was the old covenant Jesus did away with the Sabbath.

o When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Thus Jesus followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

o Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, Jesus carefully taught how it should be observed. Matthew 12:1-13

o Jesus is also known as the Lord of the Sabbath. Matthew 12:8

o He instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection. Matthew 24:20

o Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the Sabbath day." Acts 13:14-16 Sounds like the Sabbath is still in effect even then.

o The New Testament alone mentions the Sabbath day no less than 84 times sounds like God is trying to tell us something. And never once is there a change of the Sabbath day to any other.

Argument #3:

Oh, God doesnt care what day we worship him.

o Isa 56:13&14 If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

§ THE is defined as an absolute, the genuine article. The verse doesnt say a Sabbath day it clearly says the Sabbath day; its very specific.

o Exodus 20:8-11, 31:13-17, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

§ Once God blesses something and hallows it (makes it holy) it is that way forever. God doesnt change nor does His law nor does His Sabbath, nor does His baptism for that matter. Ephesians 4:5

o Any time one looks up the Sabbath in the Bible it is always described it as being on the seventh day. (whenever a description is given, that is.)

o God is very specific on things He leaves little to be open to interpretation; none actually. Examples would include the exact measurements He gave for the building of the ark (Gen 6:15), the Ark of the Covenant and the earthly sanctuary (Exodus 25:10 thru 36:21), precisely what to do with the lamb (Exodus 12:8) that established the Passover, etc. Yes, He is a God of detail; a God of precision; and He says what He means.

Argument #4:

The apostles broke bread on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week (yup, thats Sunday), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

o The disciples broke bread every day (see Acts 2:46) that is not a reason for observing a different day of worship anyway and only shows lack of Biblical scholarship of someone using this argument.

o If one reads this whole story carefully one sees that Paul started preaching on the Sabbath (Saturday) but it ran over into Sunday. (It was a long sermon because Paul knew that his upcoming trip to Rome would result in his death; so he was spending extra time with the disciples.) We know day changed at sunset because God, Jesus and the disciples all defined a day as starting at sunset (see Genesis 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, etc). As such, this is actually an argument FOR Saturday worship.

o Something that most miss is that if you read the story further youll find that Paul starts out on Sunday morning for his trip; he walks 30 km and then buys a boat ticket! Now, if Sunday had been any kind of holy day then Paul would not have been traveling nor purchasing anything on that day.

Argument #5:

Col 2:14-16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days:

o This verse is referring to the Mosaic ceremonial law. There are two sets of laws in play here; which were described as being grievous to us (Col.2:14-16), and the 10 Commandments which were not grievous to us (1 John 5:3). How can the same law be grievous and not grievous at the same time? It cannot; clearly there are two sets of laws. Additionally, there isnt a single ordinance in the 10 Commandments. See definition of ordinance in any dictionary it discusses festival regulations and the like.

i. DEUT. 31:26 Take this book of the law (Moses Law), and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee (Moses Law).

ii. Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth (limited to) a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

1. Notice something here in this verse from Hebrews; enter into my (Jesus) rest actually refers to resting on the Sabbath; they are synonymous. And verse 10 makes it plain that we are talking about the same day that God rested the seventh day.

Argument #6:

Jesus is my rest.

o Well, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize that Jesus is not a day nor is He ever symbolically linked to being a day in the Bible; Hes linked to being the vine, the lamb, the door, and many other things but never, not once, a day. Are people just making Christianity up as they go along or what? We must stick to the Bible and the Bible only.

o To rest in Jesus actually has two meanings; 1) to rest on the Sabbath day (Heb 4:4) or 2) to be one of the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:14) for you are literally resting in Jesus love and protection. If you doubt that please read my study on this site entitled State of the Dead.

Argument #7:

The Holy Spirit descended on the people on the day of Pentecost; and that was a Sunday.

The Holy Spirit descended on people at other times in the Bible yet that has never constituted a change to Gods Sabbath; why this time? That is totally inconsistent with scripture. There is no place in the Bible that says when Pentecost comes the Sabbath day will be changed to that day.

Argument #8:

Sunday is the Lords Day I observe the Lords Day.

Lets look at that; The Lords Day is only found in one place in the Bible, Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was the writer of the book of Revelation, thats why he is known as John the Revelator. John was a Jew. As such, he knew and followed the seventh-day Sabbath. So, for him to use the phrase The Lords Day would mean, if anything regarding a day of the week, Saturday!

Also, I recommend you read all of Revelation 1 not one time does it say what day the Lords Day is. To assume it was a Sunday is ridiculous; sorry but there isnt any other way to say it.

Argument #9:
"We observe Sunday in honor of the Resurrection."
I saved this one for last for a reason.
o I am in no way belittling Christ resurrecting from death, but where is your scriptural authority to change God's holy day in honor of the resurrection? I'll make it easy on ya, there isn't any scriptural authority.
o How did Jesus tell us to honor His resurrection? With baptism! (Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12) So why disregard Christ's instructions or add to them? We have no authority to do such. Jesus' words are the truth - and we all know what happens when you add or take away from the truth (Revelation 22:19).
o Also, Christ specifically told us to take communion in remembrance of Him. (Luke 22:19) He never once said "change My Father's holy day".
o If Sunday observance is to commemorate Christ's resurrection then what is your Easter for again? Which is it; Sunday observence or Easter? Are main-stream Christians just making it up as they go along or what? I've even heard one Protestant say that Sundays are "little Easters" - then you might want to start buying and painting a lot of eggs! BTW - Easter is a pagan holiday, ask any Wiccan/pagan or check out this link: http://www.locksley.com/6696/easter.htm
o I challenge any good Christian to find scripture that says the redemption of our sin is in the resurrection. The bible always refers to redemption being by, in, or through the BLOOD of Christ. (1 John 1:7 is one of my favorite verses).
o I will never overlook the importance of Christ rising from the dead, but be careful that you never overlook the fact that He died for us on a Friday for that is the reason we even have a chance of being forgiven of our sins. Makes you wonder why the day wasn't changed to Friday, at least that might make some sense; Sunday does not.

Oh.... I could just go on and on.

Debi1967 · Nov 21, 2005

Scripture

I. The Word of God is Transferred Orally

Mark 13:31 - heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Mark 3:14; 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn't He have said a word about it?

Luke 10:16 - He who hears you (not "who reads your writings"), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Luke 24:47 - Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ's name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.

Acts 2:3-4 - the Holy Spirit came to the apostles in the form of "tongues" of fire so that they would "speak" (not just write) the Word.

Acts 15:27 - Judas and Silas, successors to the apostles, were sent to bring God's infallible Word by "word of mouth."

Rom. 10:8 - the Word is near you, on your lips and in your heart, which is the word of faith which is preached (not just written).

Rom. 10:17 - faith comes by what is "heard" (not just read) which is the Word that is "preached" (not read). This word comes from the oral tradition of the apostles. Those in countries where the Scriptures are not available can still come to faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:1,11 - faith comes from what is "preached" (not read). For non-Catholics to argue that oral tradition once existed but exists no longer, they must prove this from Scripture. But no where does Scripture say oral tradition died with the apostles. To the contrary, Scripture says the oral word abides forever.

Gal. 1:11-12 - the Gospel which is "preached" (not read) to me is not a man's Gospel, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 1:13 - hearing (not reading) the Word of truth is the gospel of our salvation. This is the living word in the Church's living tradition.

Col. 1:5 - of this you have "heard" (not read) before in the word of truth, the Gospel which has come to you.

1 Thess. 2:13 - the Word of God is what you have "heard" (not read). The orally communicated word of God lasts forever, and this word is preserved within the Church by the Holy Spirit.

2 Tim. 1:13 - oral communications are protected by the Spirit. They abide forever. Oral authority does not die with the apostles.

2 Tim. 4:2,6-7 - Paul, at the end of his life, charges Timothy to preach (not write) the Word. Oral teaching does not die with Paul.

Titus 1:3 - God's word is manifested "through preaching" (not writing). This "preaching" is the tradition that comes from the apostles.

1 Peter 1:25 - the Word of the Lord abides forever and that Word is the good news that was "preached" (not read) to you. Because the Word is preached by the apostles and it lasts forever, it must be preserved by the apostles' successors, or this could not be possible. Also, because the oral word abides forever, oral apostolic tradition could not have died in the fourth century with all teachings being committed to Scripture.

2 Peter 1:12, 15 - Peter says that he will leave a "means to recall these things in mind." But since this was his last canonical epistle, this "means to recall" must therefore be the apostolic tradition and teaching authority of his office that he left behind.

2 John 1:12; 3 John 13 - John prefers to speak and not to write. Throughout history, the Word of God was always transferred orally and Jesus did not change this. To do so would have been a radical departure from the Judaic tradition.

Deut. 31:9-12 - Moses had the law read only every seven years. Was the word of God absent during the seven year interval? Of course not. The Word of God has always been given orally by God's appointed ones, and was never limited to Scripture.

Isa. 40:8 - the grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God (not necessarily written) will stand forever.

Isa. 59:21 - Isaiah prophesies the promise of a living voice to hand on the Word of God to generations by mouth, not by a book. This is either a false prophecy, or it has been fulfilled by the Catholic Church.

Joel 1:3 - tell your children of the Word of the Lord, and they tell their children, and their children tell another generation.

Mal. 2:7 - the lips of a priest guard knowledge, and we should seek instruction from his mouth. Protestants want to argue all oral tradition was committed to Scripture? But no where does Scripture say this.

Top

II. Learning through Oral Apostolic Tradition

Matt. 15:3 - Jesus condemns human traditions that void God's word. Some Protestants use this verse to condemn all tradition. But this verse has nothing to do with the tradition we must obey that was handed down to us from the apostles. (Here, the Pharisees, in their human tradition, gave goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents, and this voids God's law of honoring one's father and mother.)

Mark 7:9 - this is the same as Matt. 15:3 - there is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).

Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:22 Paul also writes about the traditions of my fathers and human precepts and doctrines which regarded the laws of Judaism. These traditions are no longer necessary.

Acts 2:42 - the members obeyed apostolic tradition (doctrine, prayers, and the breaking of bread). Their obedience was not to the Scriptures alone. Tradition (in Greek, "paradosis") means "to hand on" teaching.

Acts 20:7 - this verse gives us a glimpse of Christian worship on Sunday, but changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday is understood primarily from oral apostolic tradition.

John 17:20 - Jesus prays for all who believe in Him through the oral word of the apostles. Jesus protects oral apostolic teaching.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful for maintaining the apostolic tradition that they have received. The oral word is preserved and protected by the Spirit.

Eph. 4:20 Paul refers the Ephesians to the oral tradition they previously received when he writes, You did not so learn Christ!

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. This refers to learning from his preaching and example, which is apostolic tradition.

Col. 1:5-6 of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, which has come to you. This delivery of the faith refers to the oral tradition the Colossians had previously received from the ordained leaders of the Church. This oral tradition is called the gospel of truth.

1 Thess.1:5 our gospel came to you not only in word, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul is referring to the oral tradition which the Thessalonians had previously received. There is never any instruction to abandon these previous teachings; to the contrary, they are to be followed as the word of God.

1 Thess. 4:2 Paul again refers the Thessalonians to the instructions they already had received, which is the oral apostolic tradition.

2 Thess. 2:5 Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

1 Tim. 6:20 - guard what has been "entrusted" to you. The word "entrusted" is "paratheke" which means a "deposit." Oral tradition is part of what the Church has always called the Deposit of Faith.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says what you have heard from me entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. This is "tradition," or the handing on of apostolic teaching.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it (by oral tradition).

1 John 2:7 John refers to the oral word his disciples have heard which is the old commandment that we love one another.

Top

III. Examples of Jesus' and the Apostles' Reliance on Oral Tradition

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the "beloved disciple" is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement ("it is better to give than to receive") of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament. Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament. Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

Oblio said:
Where was it changed, and by who ?

For this answer you'll need to be back about 8 pages; I'm not going to repeat answers that have already been given.
The point is that no one can change one tittle of God's moral law.

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

Oblio said:
No I don't see that. I've presented primary source documents that state that Apostolic Fathers were taught by Christ and His Apostles to worship on Sunday.

I was hoping for primary sources rather than published opinions that support your contention of a continuous Sabbath Law keeping by Christians from the Ressurecction until the present day.

Sorry, I thought you wanted information that showed St. Patrick was a Sabbath keeper.

Still, the burden of proof is on you to show in the scriptures that the Sabbath was changed or done away with in the scriptures.

Oblio · Nov 21, 2005

BTW - Easter is a pagan holiday, ask any Wiccan/pagan

Right, that's been debunked numerous times.

For this answer you'll need to be back about 8 pages; I'm not going to repeat answers that have already been given.

I've heard the the GCA myth countless times, it has also been debunked.

Oblio · Nov 21, 2005

Still, the burden of proof is on you to show in the scriptures that the Sabbath was changed or done away with in the scriptures.

You are the one that claimed that throughout history the Sabbath has been kept [by Christians], yet you have provided no primary evidence.

GraceInHim · Nov 21, 2005

Sophia7 said:
The seventh-day Sabbath was kept for some time after Jesus' resurrection, but as a result of several Jewish uprisings against the Romans, the Romans began persecuting the Jews. The increasing anti-semitism in the Roman Empire led Christians to try to dissociate themselves with Jews. They had previously even been considered a sect of Judaism by the Romans and thus been tolerated. One of the most obvious ways to separate themselves was to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday because Sunday (the day of the Sun) was a popular day of worship in pagan Rome. The change did not happen all at once, though, and many Christians kept both days. For a while, the early Christians were encouraged to keep Saturday as a fast day and Sunday as the day of worship, using the idea of Jesus' resurrection on Sunday as their justification. Eventually, the Church designated Sunday as the only acceptable "Sabbath" day or Lord's Day, but throughout the Christian era there have always been groups that did not submit to the authority of the Catholic Church and continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath in accordance with the Bible. These groups, such as the Waldenses in medieval France, often faced persecution because of their beliefs.

To learn more about this subject, check out the following article by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_64.html

Bacchiocchi received his doctoral degree from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome and was the first non-Catholic ever to publish a book with the imprimatur (approval) of the Catholic Church. That book, From Sabbath to Sunday, is about the history of the change.

thanks -

PaleHorse · Nov 21, 2005

debiwebi said:
Scripture

I. The Word of God is Transferred Orally

Mark 13:31 - heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally.

Mark 3:14; 16:15 - Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn't He have said a word about it?

Luke 10:16 - He who hears you (not "who reads your writings"), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

Luke 24:47 - Jesus explains that repentance and forgiveness of sins must be preached (not written) in Christ's name to all nations. For Protestants to argue that the word of God is now limited to a book (subject to thousands of different interpretations) is to not only ignore Scripture, but introduce a radical theory about how God spreads His word which would have been unbelievable to the people at the time of Jesus.

Acts 2:3-4 - the Holy Spirit came to the apostles in the form of "tongues" of fire so that they would "speak" (not just write) the Word.

Acts 15:27 - Judas and Silas, successors to the apostles, were sent to bring God's infallible Word by "word of mouth."

Rom. 10:8 - the Word is near you, on your lips and in your heart, which is the word of faith which is preached (not just written).

Rom. 10:17 - faith comes by what is "heard" (not just read) which is the Word that is "preached" (not read). This word comes from the oral tradition of the apostles. Those in countries where the Scriptures are not available can still come to faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:1,11 - faith comes from what is "preached" (not read). For non-Catholics to argue that oral tradition once existed but exists no longer, they must prove this from Scripture. But no where does Scripture say oral tradition died with the apostles. To the contrary, Scripture says the oral word abides forever.

Gal. 1:11-12 - the Gospel which is "preached" (not read) to me is not a man's Gospel, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph. 1:13 - hearing (not reading) the Word of truth is the gospel of our salvation. This is the living word in the Church's living tradition.

Col. 1:5 - of this you have "heard" (not read) before in the word of truth, the Gospel which has come to you.

1 Thess. 2:13 - the Word of God is what you have "heard" (not read). The orally communicated word of God lasts forever, and this word is preserved within the Church by the Holy Spirit.

2 Tim. 1:13 - oral communications are protected by the Spirit. They abide forever. Oral authority does not die with the apostles.

2 Tim. 4:2,6-7 - Paul, at the end of his life, charges Timothy to preach (not write) the Word. Oral teaching does not die with Paul.

Titus 1:3 - God's word is manifested "through preaching" (not writing). This "preaching" is the tradition that comes from the apostles.

1 Peter 1:25 - the Word of the Lord abides forever and that Word is the good news that was "preached" (not read) to you. Because the Word is preached by the apostles and it lasts forever, it must be preserved by the apostles' successors, or this could not be possible. Also, because the oral word abides forever, oral apostolic tradition could not have died in the fourth century with all teachings being committed to Scripture.

2 Peter 1:12, 15 - Peter says that he will leave a "means to recall these things in mind." But since this was his last canonical epistle, this "means to recall" must therefore be the apostolic tradition and teaching authority of his office that he left behind.

2 John 1:12; 3 John 13 - John prefers to speak and not to write. Throughout history, the Word of God was always transferred orally and Jesus did not change this. To do so would have been a radical departure from the Judaic tradition.

Deut. 31:9-12 - Moses had the law read only every seven years. Was the word of God absent during the seven year interval? Of course not. The Word of God has always been given orally by God's appointed ones, and was never limited to Scripture.

Isa. 40:8 - the grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God (not necessarily written) will stand forever.

Isa. 59:21 - Isaiah prophesies the promise of a living voice to hand on the Word of God to generations by mouth, not by a book. This is either a false prophecy, or it has been fulfilled by the Catholic Church.

Joel 1:3 - tell your children of the Word of the Lord, and they tell their children, and their children tell another generation.

Mal. 2:7 - the lips of a priest guard knowledge, and we should seek instruction from his mouth. Protestants want to argue all oral tradition was committed to Scripture? But no where does Scripture say this.

Top

II. Learning through Oral Apostolic Tradition

Matt. 15:3 - Jesus condemns human traditions that void God's word. Some Protestants use this verse to condemn all tradition. But this verse has nothing to do with the tradition we must obey that was handed down to us from the apostles. (Here, the Pharisees, in their human tradition, gave goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents, and this voids God's law of honoring one's father and mother.)

Mark 7:9 - this is the same as Matt. 15:3 - there is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).

Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:22 Paul also writes about the traditions of my fathers and human precepts and doctrines which regarded the laws of Judaism. These traditions are no longer necessary.

Acts 2:42 - the members obeyed apostolic tradition (doctrine, prayers, and the breaking of bread). Their obedience was not to the Scriptures alone. Tradition (in Greek, "paradosis") means "to hand on" teaching.

Acts 20:7 - this verse gives us a glimpse of Christian worship on Sunday, but changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday is understood primarily from oral apostolic tradition.

John 17:20 - Jesus prays for all who believe in Him through the oral word of the apostles. Jesus protects oral apostolic teaching.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful for maintaining the apostolic tradition that they have received. The oral word is preserved and protected by the Spirit.

Eph. 4:20 Paul refers the Ephesians to the oral tradition they previously received when he writes, You did not so learn Christ!

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. This refers to learning from his preaching and example, which is apostolic tradition.

Col. 1:5-6 of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, which has come to you. This delivery of the faith refers to the oral tradition the Colossians had previously received from the ordained leaders of the Church. This oral tradition is called the gospel of truth.

1 Thess.1:5 our gospel came to you not only in word, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul is referring to the oral tradition which the Thessalonians had previously received. There is never any instruction to abandon these previous teachings; to the contrary, they are to be followed as the word of God.

1 Thess. 4:2 Paul again refers the Thessalonians to the instructions they already had received, which is the oral apostolic tradition.

2 Thess. 2:5 Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

1 Tim. 6:20 - guard what has been "entrusted" to you. The word "entrusted" is "paratheke" which means a "deposit." Oral tradition is part of what the Church has always called the Deposit of Faith.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says what you have heard from me entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. This is "tradition," or the handing on of apostolic teaching.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it (by oral tradition).

1 John 2:7 John refers to the oral word his disciples have heard which is the old commandment that we love one another.

Top

III. Examples of Jesus' and the Apostles' Reliance on Oral Tradition

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the "beloved disciple" is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement ("it is better to give than to receive") of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament. Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament. Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

And I accept oral instruction from Christ and the apostles - not from any later sources - especially ecclesiastical ones. Why? Two reasons:
1) Paul told us that the spirit of antichrist was already in action in his time (1 John 2:18), as such I have to be weary of any sources that fall outside of apostolic teachings.
2) The very first prophecy in the Bible is:
Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
This tells me that Satan will have a "seed" as well her "seed". When does Satan's "seed" come about?
Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It is my understanding that Satan put forth his seed at about the same time that Christ's church was put forth - evidence of this is verified in the 1 John 2:18. It is my contention that anything taught after the apostles is questionable at best. And if any of those teachings go against the commandments of God or the testimony of Christ then I deem it as being false immediately.

GraceInHim · Nov 21, 2005

Cliff2 said:
After the resurrection many still kept the Sabbath.

The Apostles kept the Sabbath.

Through out history many have still been Sabbath keepers.

St Patrick was a 7th day Sabbath keeper.

so when you look at it - the calendar is wrong with the days? - wow I did not know St. Patrick was a sabbath keeper.... this is a disgrace whoever changed it - God made this day Holy from the beginning - seems Jesus was right about the future when he spoke.....

Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

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