Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath?

SassySDA · Nov 18, 2005

BigNorsk said:
Galatians 3:19 NET
(19) Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.

The law was given to reveal sin, but note it was until the arrival of the descendant (Jesus).

Galatians 3:22-26 NET
(22) But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to those who believe.
(23) Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed.
(24) Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
(26) For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith.

In custody under the law until the coming faith would be revealed. Our guardian until Christ, now we are no longer under a guardian, the law.

Galatians 3:29 NET
(29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise.

The result is we are heirs of the promise made to Abraham. Children of the promise.

Galatians 4:1-2 NET
(1) Now I mean that the heir, as long as he is a minor, is no different from a slave, though he is the owner of everything.
(2) But he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father.
Notice again we are under the law until the date set.

Galatians 4:4-5 NET
(4) But when the appropriate time had come, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
(5) to redeem those who were under the law, so that we may be adopted as sons with full rights.

There we see the date the Father set, the coming of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 4:7 NET
(7) So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son, then you are also an heir through God.

We are not under our guardian any longer.

Galatians 4:9-11 NET
(9) But now that you have come to know God (or rather to be known by God), how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless basic forces? Do you want to be enslaved to them all over again?
(10) You are observing religious days and months and seasons and years.
(11) I fear for you that my work for you may have been in vain.

Turning back to the law is a mistake as we are told here in very strong words, Paul fears that the Galatians are not saved at all, but have turned from Christ back to condemnation under the law.

Galatians 4:21 NET
(21) Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand the law?

Obviously not!

Galatians 4:22-31 NET
(22) For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
(23) But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise.
(24) These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar.
(25) Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
(26) But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
(27) For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren woman who does not bear children; break forth and shout, you who have no birth pains, because the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband.
(28) But you, brothers and sisters, are children of the promise like Isaac.
(29) But just as at that time the one born by natural descent persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
(30) But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son of the free woman.
(31) Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman.

Those who put themselves under the law are not children of the promise, children of the free woman, they are the children of the slave woman. Again Paul warns the Galatians that the children of the slave woman will not share the inheritence with the free.

The two covenants are spell out clearly here, the one, given from Mount Sinai, the Ten Commandments, results in slaves who will not share in the inheritence.

The Covenant that came from the Jerusalem above (Jesus) makes us children of the promise and we receive the inheritance.

So we are under the new covenant the covenant usually referred to as grace. We are not under the covenant of law, the covenant given on Mount Sinai, we are indeed warned about that covenant most gravely.

People must decide whether they are to be slaves under the old covenant or sons under the new.

Marv

You REALLY believe that? Explain to me, like I'm a 2 year old, just what this "grace" is. Because it sounds like the 10 commandments are gone, and Moses Law is gone, so we can just do whatever we want. That neighbor who's been driving me crazy...I can shut up her permanently???? And I won't have to pay for that? What??? OR is it that I can sin, just make sure I repent...go to the Lord in confession each week, and I'm good to go until the next time? I honestly don't get what you mean by this "grace" I keep hearing about.

This has never made any sense to me...I'm going to stick with what does. God's word, God's truth.

oldsage · Nov 18, 2005

Not to sound rude, but I have read the bible and just quoting verses without commentary is fruitless. the understanding I have comes from the bible, so, there is nothing that you are going to post in the bible that I disagree with, I will just say your understanding is incorrect. So when you post the passages you should state what they are for and why you believe them the way you do.

ra123 said:
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with;
iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear.
Isa 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of
blood.

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he
sent me.

Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? because ye cannot hear my word.

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put to an open shame.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Isa 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Hbr 12:29 For our God a consuming fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

oldsage · Nov 18, 2005

debiwebi said:
Yes but he blessed it and made it Holy before he even created Adam no less Eve and it was not instituted in use anywhere in the Bible until Moses .... Show me where God instituted it's use before then .... And do remember that if you say that just because of that Scripture and then because it was in Genesis ... this would be a conclusionary argument which would make it Tradition ....

You see the Sabbath was made in creation, so it existed right after Adam and Eve were made. So it was there, we have seen that in the text. Now, the Ten Commandment are moral precepts that God handed down, but do you think that morals didn't start until Moses? or that God had morality all along?
If God had morality all along then the Sabbath has always been kept by those that follow God. The bible states that sin is transgression of the law, if there were no law at the time of Adam and Eve then there would have been no sin.

Chris

SassySDA · Nov 18, 2005

ra123 said:
The docrine of the saducees and pharisees are the ones who tell us or keep us under the law, instead of Christ who has saved us from it.

Matthew 16:12, Then understood they how that he bade not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Saducees.

Exactly, in what WAY did Christ save us from it, and just exactly what law are you speaking of. If you are speaking of Mosaic Law, you are correct, He did save us from it. He should that throughout the Gospel, just one example was His healing folks ON the Sabbath, with them continuously accusing Him of breaking the law by doing so. I like to put it as "Jesus knocked some sense into their heads" or at least He tried.

If, however, you are speaking of both the Mosaic, AND the Ten Commandments I would have to disagree, unless you can explain to me how we can live our daily lives without that "mirror". The Commandments are our "mirror", they show us when we have committed sin, and thus we know are in need of repentance. You tell people the Commandments are no longer binding, that Jesus "freed" us from it, well...all I'm going to say is the world is in BAD enough shape now. Just imagine what it would be like if everyone thought we didn't have to abide by those Commandments at all...WHICH is exactly what it sounds like people are saying when they give this "we're no longer under the law, we're under grace speech".

Maybe I am taking it wrong, so explain it to me like I'm a 2 year old, please?

SassySDA · Nov 18, 2005

oldsage said:
You see the Sabbath was made in creation, so it existed right after Adam and Eve were made. So it was there, we have seen that in the text. Now, the Ten Commandment are moral precepts that God handed down, but do you think that morals didn't start until Moses? or that God had morality all along?
If God had morality all along then the Sabbath has always been kept by those that follow God. The bible states that sin is transgression of the law, if there were no law at the time of Adam and Eve then there would have been no sin.

Chris

Oblio · Nov 18, 2005

You see the Sabbath was made in creation, so it existed right after Adam and Eve were made.

And that fallen Creation along with Adam and Eve have been redeemed and surpassed. The Creation that had fallen and the commemorative weekly Sabbath pertaining to it have been superceded.

BigNorsk · Nov 18, 2005

PaleHorse said:
Last chance, Marv,
What is grace? Unless you can define what grace is then I'm just gonna overlook your posts.
(and besides, your interpretations above are wrong because you are ignoring the context - once again).

Are these the best arguments you've got? Are you kidding me? I guess I should be glad that you aren't arguing against not murdering as much as you are in breaking this Commandment.

Which brings up a good point - Marv, if I was to steal your car God is okay with that right? Afterall, I'm under grace.

Grace for us is God's unmerited favor.

You don't earn grace.

Romans 11:5-6 NET
(5) So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
(6) And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Grace is not pay, it is received by faith.

Romans 4:4-5 NET
(4) Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.
(5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Grace is freely given and operates separately from the law, it comes to us through Jesus.

Romans 3:19-24 NET
(19) Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
(20) For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed
(22) namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
(23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
(24) But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Grace is the only way for us to be righteous.

Galatians 2:21 NET
(21) I do not set aside God's grace, because if righteousness could come through the law, then Christ died for nothing!

You could substitute God's mercy for God's grace and you wouldn't be far off.

Ephesians 2:4-9 NET
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us,
(5) even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you are saved!
(6) and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
(7) to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
(9) it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

The law cannot bring righteousness, indeed it prevents righteousness. God's grace comes to us through faith and only through faith.

Galatians 5:4-6 NET
(4) You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace!
(5) For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait expectantly for the hope of righteousness.
(6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight the only thing that matters is faith working through love.

Grace again doesn't come through Moses, but rather it comes to us through Jesus.
John 1:17 NET
(17) For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.

There you go.

Now as for my posts being out of context they absolutely are not. You keep saying that but that doesn't mean you are correct. The Posts are talking to Christians who are in danger from people teaching them they must obey the old covenant laws in order to become righteous. But as we just saw, righteousness cannot come through the law. So what was being taught was a false gospel, one which once again tries to put people under the law that they have died to.

Marv

BigNorsk · Nov 18, 2005

SassySDA said:
You REALLY believe that? Explain to me, like I'm a 2 year old, just what this "grace" is. Because it sounds like the 10 commandments are gone, and Moses Law is gone, so we can just do whatever we want. That neighbor who's been driving me crazy...I can shut up her permanently???? And I won't have to pay for that? What??? OR is it that I can sin, just make sure I repent...go to the Lord in confession each week, and I'm good to go until the next time? I honestly don't get what you mean by this "grace" I keep hearing about.

This has never made any sense to me...I'm going to stick with what does. God's word, God's truth.

Do you not understand this?

Romans 6:1-2 NET
(1) What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase?
(2) Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

There have been those who attempt to use grace as an excuse to sin.

Jude 1:4 NET
(4) For certain men have secretly slipped in among you men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

but you will notice that to be that way is not to accept Christ but to deny Christ, and we know what happens to those who deny Christ don't we?

Grace is no excuse for unrighteousness.

Those who are under grace are not slaves to lawlessness but slaves of righteousness. We are sanctified by his grace.

Romans 6:19-23 NET
(19) (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
(20) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.
(21) So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death.
(22) But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life.
(23) For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if you put yourself under law, you are not under grace at all, and what the law brings is condemnation and death. I hope you are familiar with the passages that tell us that. If you aren't tell me and I will look them up for you.

But now there is a new covenant, a new law, the law of the Spirit. A law that is written on the hearts of those who put their faith in Jesus. Not a law written on stone that brings death, but a law that brings life.

A person made righteous by grace, will be free to do what that person wants to do. That person is going to love his neighbor not hate his neighbor and want to kill him. To sin with the idea that you can just go to confession next week would be to make a fool of God, and you can't do that. Of course you can try, but he will not be a fool.

Marv

Haggai · Nov 18, 2005

The Sabbath was ordained a holy day right after creation. In the 10 commandments, the fourth commandment being the Sabbath one, notice it says "Remember the Sabbath..." It is not commanding us, it is reminding us, which means it was already made a commandment before the law was written by the finger of God.

No where in the Bible was the Sabbath day changed from Saturday to Sunday, no where, thus it is still Saturday, the seventh-day of the week.

Some believe that the law was "fulfilled" when Jesus died, this is incorrect. Jesus did fulfill, but not the 10 commandment law. He fulfilled the prophecy of the messiah coming to save all. Jesus being the ultimate lamb, when he died, stopped all lamb sacrifices, and if you do so today, you are rejecting that Christ died for our sins. If Christ is our example, we should follow everything that he did our best with the help of God, and Jesus did keep them Sabbath day holy. John 15:10, "I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." Even after Jesus's death, Mary and the disciples kept Sabbath. Ecclesiastes 12:13 states clearly to "Fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of men." James 2:10-12 says that if we break one commandment, offend in one point, we have broken the whole law, we cannot pick and choose which commandments we keep. 1 John 2:4,"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

If we love God, we shall keep his commandments. 1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill the prophecy of the messiah in the Old Testement [Mathew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."]

How long shall the law be around? "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earthpass, one jot nor one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mathew 5:18. In Isaiah, it talks about the new heavens and new earth, how how we will still be keeping the Sabbath, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another; and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 66:22-23

What is sin? According to the Bible, sin is the transgression of the law [Romands 3:20 "For by the law is the knowledge of sin"]
Paul did not destroy the law. [Romans 3:31 "DO we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law"]

In what case will God give us what we ask for? "Whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" 1 John 3:22]

In conclusion, what is a requirement to get to heaven? "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

All Bible verse were taken from the Authorized King James Version of 1611

tall73 · Nov 18, 2005

BigNorsk said:
But now there is a new covenant, a new law, the law of the Spirit. A law that is written on the hearts of those who put their faith in Jesus. Not a law written on stone that brings death, but a law that brings life.

AMEN!
I agree with you 100% on this point. I do have some differing views on aspects of it, and I hope you would take the time to read over them. But I think the emphasis you have placed here is indeed important. The law is no longer external on stone, but internal in the heart. It is lived out perfectly by the Spirit:

RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

If we live by the Spirit we are not under law, not condemned by it, we live out naturally the requirements of the law. The law was added because men fell so far from God that they no longer recognized right from wrong. Paul says as much when he talks about not knowing what coveting was unless the law said not to covet. The law in the 10 commandments is NOT the fullest expression of the law. It is the BASELINE. But God's will goes far beyond it.

Now the only question I have of you...is the spirit of the law less or more than the letter? Why does Paul say the laws righteous requirements were FULLY met in those who have the Spirit?

It is an INTERNAL issue. It is written on the heart. Paul said in Phil. that he already lived as a pharisee with legalistic righteousness in a FAULTLESS WAY. But Romans 7 makes clear he could not keep God's law in his mind because of his sinful nature. The point is that by the Spirit we can put to death the sinful nature and really WANT to do God's will.

Notice Jesus' treatment of the spirit vs. letter issue in Matthew 5:

Anger without cause = murder
lust = adultery
divorce and remarriage = adultery
keep your oath => don't swear at all
eye for an eye => do not resist an evil man

The Spirit lives out a law in our heart that goes far beyond the written code.

Now notice Jesus' treatment of the Sabbath. Did he not make reforms here too?

MK 3:1 Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."

MK 3:4 Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

MK 3:5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Stop working => day to help man and to honor God.

Didn't God intend that people do all of these "new" things from the outset? Were not David and Abraham etc. all saved by faith even then?

The new covenant is the internalizing of the external law. But it goes far beyond it. It removes our sin, and enables us to keep God's commands willingly by the power of His indwelling Spirit

But it is in no way new in one respect. Those who followed God from the heart always had access to this. But the BASIS for it was not seen until Christ. That is why Abraham longed to see Jesus' day. That is why Romans says God left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.

Cliff2 · Nov 18, 2005

BigNorsk said:
Do you not understand this?

Romans 6:1-2 NET
(1) What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase?
(2) Absolutely not! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

There have been those who attempt to use grace as an excuse to sin.

Jude 1:4 NET
(4) For certain men have secretly slipped in among you men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

but you will notice that to be that way is not to accept Christ but to deny Christ, and we know what happens to those who deny Christ don't we?

Grace is no excuse for unrighteousness.

Those who are under grace are not slaves to lawlessness but slaves of righteousness. We are sanctified by his grace.

Romans 6:19-23 NET
(19) (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
(20) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free with regard to righteousness.
(21) So what benefit did you then reap from those things that you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death.
(22) But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life.
(23) For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now if you put yourself under law, you are not under grace at all, and what the law brings is condemnation and death. I hope you are familiar with the passages that tell us that. If you aren't tell me and I will look them up for you.

But now there is a new covenant, a new law, the law of the Spirit. A law that is written on the hearts of those who put their faith in Jesus. Not a law written on stone that brings death, but a law that brings life.

A person made righteous by grace, will be free to do what that person wants to do. That person is going to love his neighbor not hate his neighbor and want to kill him. To sin with the idea that you can just go to confession next week would be to make a fool of God, and you can't do that. Of course you can try, but he will not be a fool.

Marv

I wonder what law you want to keep breaking?

Out of the "ten" which one do you like to break

You say

A person made righteous by grace, will be free to do what that person wants to do.

I do not think that is right.

We all have free will to do right or wrong but we have a guideline to follow in the choice we will make.

tall73 · Nov 18, 2005

Cliff2 said:
I wonder what law you want to keep breaking?

Out of the "ten" which one do you like to break

You say

I do not think that is right.

We all have free will to do right or wrong but we have a guideline to follow in the choice we will make.

Please folks, understand what he is saying. He doesn't want to break any law. He wants the law to be internalized on the heart, not external by the written code. This IS THE PROMISE OF THE NEW COVENANT.

The difference is he does not recognize that just as Jesus restored the spirit of many commands (see my previous post) He also did the same for the Sabbath.

tall73 · Nov 18, 2005

Oblio said:
And that fallen Creation along with Adam and Eve have been redeemed and surpassed. The Creation that had fallen and the commemorative weekly Sabbath pertaining to it have been superceded.

But the problem is that this creation is only mentioned as being destroyed once in the NT...and that is in 2 Peter where he says the world of Noah's time was deluged and destroyed, and that the current world was reserved for fire.

The New earth is yet to come. And so the Sabbath command remains.

You are referring to US being new creations. And that is quite true. But we already have a symbol for that. It is called baptism.

BigNorsk · Nov 18, 2005

tall73 said:
Please folks, understand what he is saying. He doesn't want to break any law. He wants the law to be internalized on the heart, not external by the written code. This IS THE PROMISE OF THE NEW COVENANT.

The difference is he does not recognize that just as Jesus restored the spirit of many commands (see my previous post) He also did the same for the Sabbath.

You are right that the new covenant goes way beyond the old.

If you want to see the Sabbath under the new, you can go back in this thread to the long post I gave on Hebrews. The Sabbath is "Today", each and every day is a Sabbath rest from the works of the law.

The Sabbath of the new covenant goes way beyond the Sabbath of the old covenant. It isn't that there is no Sabbath. It is that evey single day is a Sabbath.

I explained it much earlier in this thread.

Marv

tall73 · Nov 18, 2005

BigNorsk said:
You are right that the new covenant goes way beyond the old.

If you want to see the Sabbath under the new, you can go back in this thread to the long post I gave on Hebrews. The Sabbath is "Today", each and every day is a Sabbath rest from the works of the law.

The Sabbath of the new covenant goes way beyond the Sabbath of the old covenant. It isn't that there is no Sabbath. It is that evey single day is a Sabbath.

I explained it much earlier in this thread.

Marv

Ok, this is progress. Let us agree that no one is interested in breaking the law, but rather we want to keep it by the Spirit.

The only question that remains then is whether the extension of the Sabbath into the new covenant is

a. original Sabbath
b. Sunday
c. Every day

That is a fair discussion.

I would say that if you simply look at the commands of Jesus you will find that He spent far more time restoring the Sabbath than the other two options. In fact, we find no mention of the other two. Though I will say Jesus certainly would agree with every day being a day of worship.

Now then, let us focus for a time on Hebrews 4. Because that is in fact a key passage. And it should help us understand the whole question.

Frankly, as I said earlier, the biblical evidence itself gives no credence to Sunday. So for those who want to push it, it is up to them to show. But the other two seem to be viable options from the evidence, so let's look at it.

Please repost your thoughts here for convenience. Palehorse, please do the same with your treatment. I will endeavor to likewise draw up something. Oldsage etc. can do the same, and let's see where we get on this important text.

tall73 · Nov 18, 2005

THIS IS A SUGGESTION

For anyone wishing to participate in the Hebrews 4 discussion I strongly suggest you fully write up your view on chapter 4 and the context, including obviously most of chapter 3.

It think all would agree that this is a complicated passage. It is good to wrestle with the details. Otherwise there is a danger that our comments will not come from a full understanding.

It won't hurt us to read more on it, so post your view!

oldsage · Nov 19, 2005

Haggai said:
All Bible verse were taken from the Authorized King James Version of 1611

hmm, looks to me like they were taken from the 1769 version of the KJV not the 1611 version

oldsage · Nov 19, 2005

BigNorsk said:
You are right that the new covenant goes way beyond the old.

If you want to see the Sabbath under the new, you can go back in this thread to the long post I gave on Hebrews. The Sabbath is "Today", each and every day is a Sabbath rest from the works of the law.

The Sabbath of the new covenant goes way beyond the Sabbath of the old covenant. It isn't that there is no Sabbath. It is that evey single day is a Sabbath.

I explained it much earlier in this thread.

Marv

but you have to keep Hebrews in context. When reading it keep in mind what the writer says he is talking about, he says it is the world to come, of which we are speaking

The Sabbath is eschatological in nature also, it foreshadows the redemptive rest we will have in the word to come. We can enter that rest Today, if we hear His voice. But Hebrews isn't speaking for or against Sabbath keeping, but speaking of things to come and redemption we can have now.

spirit1st · Nov 19, 2005

GRACE IS?Unmerited mercy.Mercy comes from LOVE!
You see?Once we have been born again{which is a new birth of our spirit}We are new creatured .Created in CHRIST JESUS .Just like HE is! This spirit is protected forever by the BLOOD of JESUS CHRIST.It is not of thgis world,nor wants anything of this world.It hates being trapped in these unholy bodys.
We see our flesh can not help but sin .But we live by grace and ythe mercy of GOD.But still?We reap what we sow,Not in our spirits .As they are made after OUR LORD.But the flesh and mind.These parts can sin and bring sickness to the body.Even GRACE with not protect us?Unless we obey the scriptures?The LORD tells us in james .If we sin?We should go before the elders being anionted and we will be forgiven if we have sinned.Few take advanage of this?I seen many christains suffer needlessly! You SEE?We must obey GODS living WORd to live a overcoming type life.if we do not obey in the little things.We will not be pleasing to our FATHER.WE must come as childern and believe HIm as a child would! And be honest with hIM above all !He can deal with ANYTHING,if we are TRUTHFUL with HIm.3Jo 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
Phm 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
When reading the bible?We must think?Which is this speaking about?My spirit,my soul or mind[same] or flesh .the tempory part of me!
The spirit and the soul will last forever more!
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

spirit1st · Nov 19, 2005

No,there will be no sabbath in the future,not like a day.Becvause there will be a NEW heaven and earth.time will be no more! WHY?Because once BORN OF GOD.We are like JESUS CHRIST is now!Our spirit would not be happy in a world like this.You SEE?GOD wanted childern of HIS own .NEW CREATURES like never before.All this that mankind has gone though is to gain a NEW breed of beings.Us !BORN OF GOD.I do not believe GOD could save man kind.But had to create a new creature.A spiritual being like our LORD JESUS CHRIST!We see?He could not forgive the angels,which may have been with HIm for millions or even billions of years.Why?Because sin destorys .And HE is HOLY and can not allow any sin full creature in HIS kingdom.Or it would destory it all! satan was a great angel .maybe the greatest.but he had to go.We see ,his name has been changed showing the old guy,has died .a new evil creature has now appeared.Well we were evil being dead in our sins.we we are [if born of GOD]NEW CREATURES ,HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS.
Made in HIS INAGE[JESUS CHRIST}.
Our fullm life is for the LORD too live though us.HE SAID?GREATER WORKS WILL THESE DO!Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

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