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BrightCandle said:This is another simple minded question that sounds smart, but isn't.
The anwere is obvious: The Ten Commandments were written in stone (permanent), by Jesus' own finger. The law of Moses was written on paper with Moses' fingers (not permanent).
Nazaroo said:[/b]
Good question. But your answer is wanting:
Yes. There were changes made:
Specifically, sacrifice was no longer required.
Yes. the old Covenant between God and Israel.
The Covenant is the agreement between God and Israel.
Although it included Law, and indeed specific national laws,
It is not at all identical with the Law of God for mankind,
which includes commandments like "Thou shalt not murder."
These Laws (commandments) are for everybody, and are not exclusive to the Covenant.
Wrong! Obviously you aren't reading the word of God or your own post carefully enough
to keep the concepts of Law and Covenant from being confused in your mind.
The final leap in your erroneous non-sequitous logic is you equate change with 'no longer applicable'.
Wrong again. Change means SOME laws are no longer applicable in the old form.
notice in verse 17 it speaks about it being a shadow of things to come. it is talking about something in the future, not something in the past. So, you view on this passage is incorrect from the usage you applied to it. Remember that this letter was written long after Jesus ascended to heaven.BigDave said:What is the NT teaching on the observance of the Sabbath?
Colossians 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The observance of the Sabbath is merely a shadow of things to come. The reality is Christ. No longer do laws about foods or days of worship need to be observed.
BigDave said:Romans 14:5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
There is no need to esteem any day in particular above another. So, it would be just as wrong to say that Sunday has replaced the Sabbath as to say that it is necessary to worship on the Sabbath. In short, no day need be special - the key is to be convinced in your own mind about the matter and observe whatever day you decide (Sabbath, Sunday or all of them, doesn't matter) in faith.
BigDave said:What does Scripture say about contined observance of the the Mosaic law?
BigDave said:Heb 7:12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
The law has been changed with the advent of Christ.
Heb 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah
The old covenant was imperfect.
Hebrews8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Mosaic law is no longer applicable.
BrightCandle said:This is another simple minded question that sounds smart, but isn't.
The anwere is obvious: The Ten Commandments were written in stone (permanent), by Jesus' own finger. The law of Moses was written by the hand of Moses on paper (not permanent).
BigDave said:How is this obvious? IOW, where is this sort of distinction made in Scripture?
And more specifically, if this distinction exist, why does Paul use the concept of 'tables of stone' to refer to the whole of the Mosaic law (2 Cor 3:7)?
oldsage said:I am just gonna make a short comment on each of this points.
notice in verse 17 it speaks about it being a shadow of things to come. it is talking about something in the future, not something in the past. So, you view on this passage is incorrect from the usage you applied to it. Remember that this letter was written long after Jesus ascended to heaven.
But how about this question, why did it matter in the OT times about the Sabbath? What was the big deal?
Your assumption here is it is speaking of the Mosaic law, but that has yet to be proven from the context. The law isn't the same as the covenant. The law is contained in the covenant.
[In reference to Rom 14] This has nothing to do with Sabbath it isn't addressing any commandments whatsoever but about fasting.
stone said:but saturday is still the sabbath, always has been, always will be. I think you'll find this answer in genesis, when g-d rested on the 7th day. This would have been a tradition that started with Adam, although i can't imagine what Adam would need to rest from while in the garden of eden. lol
BigDave said:How is this obvious? IOW, where is this sort of distinction made in Scripture?
And more specifically, if this distinction exist, why does Paul use the concept of 'tables of stone' to refer to the whole of the Mosaic law (2 Cor 3:7)?
HEB 8:3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
HEB 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
HEB 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
HEB 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
HEB 8:11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
HEB 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
HEB 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."
HEB 7:18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
HEB 7:20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
`You are a priest forever.' "
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
GE 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
BigDave said:This one has me mystified. Where in the world did you get that this is about fasting? The passage certainly says nothing about fasting and I am not seeing how you got that from the context. In fact, the latter part of the chapter shows that the reference to eating in the earlier part of the chapter had to do with what is 'clean or unclean', not about 'eating or not eating'.
And then you say it has nothing to do with Sabbath yet the passage specifically talks about the Sabbath. Can you clarify?
RO 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
oldsage said:notice in verse 17 it speaks about it being a shadow of things to come. it is talking about something in the future, not something in the past. So, you view on this passage is incorrect from the usage you applied to it. Remember that this letter was written long after Jesus ascended to heaven.
BigDave said:Well yeah, the Sabbath is still the 7th day which is Saturday. I don't see how that could be called into question. Those who would argue that keeping the Sabbath is still a requirement for holy living but say Sunday is now the Sabbath are being foolish. The real question is not what day the Sabbath is on (Scripture is *very* clear on that) but instead what Scripture says about the necessity of keeping the Sabbath.
HEB 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4 For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.
5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
HEB 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
HEB 3:8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
HEB 3:9 where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
HEB 3:10 That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, `Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
HEB 3:11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "
HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15 As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
HEB 3:16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
`They shall never enter my rest.' "
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
HEB 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
HEB 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
HEB 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
BigDave said:Well yeah, the Sabbath is still the 7th day which is Saturday. I don't see how that could be called into question. Those who would argue that keeping the Sabbath is still a requirement for holy living but say Sunday is now the Sabbath are being foolish. The real question is not what day the Sabbath is on (Scripture is *very* clear on that) but instead what Scripture says about the necessity of keeping the Sabbath.
tall73 said:First of all I like your name. I suppose because my name is Dave and I am big
First of all the new covenant cannot be doing away with the law (at least not in its entirety) because part of the covenant itself is to write the law on the heart and mind.
So the issue is whether some of the commandments were in fact left out.
The law is going from the external commandments, to walking in the Spirit, the law written on the heart. Paul speaks about those who keep the law fully by the Spirit, not by the written code. It is clear he includes the 10 commandments in this because in his example about the law revealing sin he mentions the coveting commandment.
The law as given to the Israelites was the baseline that Christ expanded (hate is murder, lust is adultery, etc. He also restored the Sabbath command from traditions of the Pharisees). True obedience comes from the heart. This is the very issue in the discussion of the covenants in Hebrews.
(for a fuller expansion of this you can read the posts up to this point in the thread if you already haven't. Nazaroo and I each went over this in some depth from our two perspectives).
First of all note that the first covenant was a set of promises on both sides. God said He would bless them and make them His people if they would do all that was asked of them. These promises for the covenant. It is a particular type of covenant. It is in many ways similar to suzerainty covenants in which a stronger power subjects a weaker power. As noted by Nazaroo the Israelites cannot escape the covenant. Because it is really a recognition of God's authority. They are either blessed by obedience, or cursed by disobedience. They are required to keep the stipulations, as outlined in the tablets. But the covenant itself is the agreement. When we look at Hebrews this becomes important.
First of all it is clear that the sacrificial system was always a copy of the true, pointing to the true High Priest and sacrifice, Jesus. So in that we totally agree. The covenant though was faulty due to the bad promises, for which God found fault with the people. They never did keep their promise to do all that God commanded, and so received the covenant curses. Since they were the weaker power they could not break the covenant. But God out of mercy reworked the covenant. So the issue is not the law which was the contract to keep. The problem was with the promises the people made.
The problem was never with the law, it was with the sinful nature. But God overcame the sinful nature through Christ and enables us to keep the law willingly by walking in the Spirit. When we do this we keep it more fully than we did by the letter, and we do it willingly. It is the law written on the heart. This is the new covenant.
However, walking in the Spirit enables us to keep the law in a new way. So it is not gone. The focus simply shifts from the external law to the indwelling Christ.
If, I say if, the Sabbath is so very important we certainly should have an honest measurement to find when it is. I've ask several times for the SDA and others that teach the Saturday Sabbath to show me a passage from the Bible that clearifies which day of the week is the Sabbath!
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