Which Church to Visit

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I may have asked this here before, but I'm not sure. If one wanted to visited a church that was close as can be to Charles H Spurgeon's church of his day, which would that be? Was he considered Reformed Baptist?

I do not have a Reformed Baptist church in my area. The only Reformed any type of church is a Reformed Presbyterian Church. Although, this does not make them "Presbyterian" other than in their form of government.

Anyway, just seeking!

God Bless!

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I may have asked this here before, but I'm not sure. If one wanted to visited a church that was close as can be to Charles H Spurgeon's church of his day, which would that be? Was he considered Reformed Baptist?

I do not have a Reformed Baptist church in my area. The only Reformed any type of church is a Reformed Presbyterian Church. Although, this does not make them "Presbyterian" other than in their form of government.

Anyway, just seeking!

God Bless!

Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist.

A Presbyterian Church (if it is theologically conservative) would have a lot in common with the Reformed Baptists in the way they see salvation and predestination.

In Christ,
KEnith

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist.

A Presbyterian Church (if it is theologically conservative) would have a lot in common with the Reformed Baptists in the way they see salvation and predestination.

In Christ,
KEnith

Do you mean the PCUSA? Don't they allow women pastors? Not to start a debate, but that is not something I agree with. Once again, not trying to debate anyone, just my stance. Is there another kind of Presbyterian church you mean? The Reformed Presbyterians are the closest I have near me, I think.

Thanks!

 

[heymikey80]

Do you mean the PCUSA? Don't they allow women pastors? Not to start a debate, but that is not something I agree with. Once again, not trying to debate anyone, just my stance. Is there another kind of Presbyterian church you mean? The Reformed Presbyterians are the closest I have near me, I think.

Thanks!

No, he doesn't mean the PCUSA because the PCUSA is not theologically conservative.

I don't know the cutoff he's thinking about but the PCA is theologically conservative, as are the OPC, the BPC, many ARP churches, and most "confessing churches" in the PCUSA.

The EPC is normally theologically conservative but it doesn't organize around conservative Reformed theology but around its essentials (described on the website). I can answer more questions about the EPC as they may come up, because they are more permissive in church government than the PCA, for understandable historical reasons.

 

[Elderone]

I believe the reformed Presbyterian church is the one the Cajun was talking about. The PCUSA is as you say, very liberal and I doubt any of us here would recommend them.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

No, he doesn't mean the PCUSA because the PCUSA is not theologically conservative.

I don't know the cutoff he's thinking about but the PCA is theologically conservative, as are the OPC, the BPC, many ARP churches, and most "confessing churches" in the PCUSA.

The EPC is normally theologically conservative but it doesn't organize around conservative Reformed theology but around its essentials (described on the website). I can answer more questions about the EPC as they may come up, because they are more permissive in church government than the PCA, for understandable historical reasons.

Unfortunately, none of those in my area either! I checked the ARP, EPC, BPC, OPC, and PCA. PCA is the closest, but it is 50 miles away.

I believe the reformed Presbyterian church is the one the Cajun was talking about. The PCUSA is as you say, very liberal and I doubt any of us here would recommend them.

Good thing, he had me worried The RPC is the only close to me it seems. Perhaps, I will give it a try. I will have some questions for them. It may be difficult for me to adjust to a liturgical service though. I believe this church has that type of service.

Thanks to all!

 

[JimfromOhio]

I am a member of PCA. Very conservative theologically.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Do you mean the PCUSA? Don't they allow women pastors? Not to start a debate, but that is not something I agree with. Once again, not trying to debate anyone, just my stance. Is there another kind of Presbyterian church you mean? The Reformed Presbyterians are the closest I have near me, I think.

Thanks!

Hello Disciple,

I do not know which Presbyterian Church is near you, so I put "if it is theologically conservative" in parenthesis. The PCUSA is (as a general rule, though there are exceptions) a liberal denomination. There are a number of conservative Presbyterian denominations as you can see from the link on this thread : Helpful information regarding Presbyterians

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[mlqurgw]

Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist.

A Presbyterian Church (if it is theologically conservative) would have a lot in common with the Reformed Baptists in the way they see salvation and predestination.

In Christ,
KEnith

I will have to respectfully disagree; Spurgeon was not a Reformed Baptist, he was simply a Baptist. Like my self and many others, holding to the Doctrines of Grace doesn't make us Reformed. I don't mean to disparage the Reformed Baptists but there are some things that I disagree with them on as well as many that I do agree with them. I may be wrong, but having read much of Spurgeon, he would have differed with them on the Law as well as their view of Baptist history.

 

[mlqurgw]

I may have asked this here before, but I'm not sure. If one wanted to visited a church that was close as can be to Charles H Spurgeon's church of his day, which would that be? Was he considered Reformed Baptist?

I do not have a Reformed Baptist church in my area. The only Reformed any type of church is a Reformed Presbyterian Church. Although, this does not make them "Presbyterian" other than in their form of government.

Anyway, just seeking!

God Bless!

What area of the country do you live? I may know of some churches in your area that aren't Reformed Baptists but do preach and proclaim the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus alone as did Spurgeon.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I will have to respectfully disagree; Spurgeon was not a Reformed Baptist, he was simply a Baptist. Like my self and many others, holding to the Doctrines of Grace doesn't make us Reformed. I don't mean to disparage the Reformed Baptists but there are some things that I disagree with them on as well as many that I do agree with them. I may be wrong, but having read much of Spurgeon, he would have differed with them on the Law as well as their view of Baptist history.

this is the best reformed baptist site i am aware of:
http://www.reformedreader.org/

Oh! So you are a Baptist group? That's another good question. Yes, we are Baptists with a difference. Let us explain. The formal, doctrinal basis, (secondary to the Bible), of Reformed Baptist Churches is the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. We are historically in the Baptist tradition. We believe in the baptism of believers only. We believe that only baptized believers should be members of local churches. In this sense we are unashamedly Baptist. We are Baptists in the tradition of John Bunyan, Benjamin Keach, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon. The problem is that you may have met not a few people who call themselves Baptist who are not that kind of Baptist. Tragically, Baptist churches, like other churches, have been subject to the erosion and dilution of their biblical convictions. In recent years, however, the God of grace has been pleased to create a thirst in many across our land and across the world for biblical revival and thoroughgoing reformation. Not a few have looked back and discovered how far modern evangelical and fundamental Christianity has deviated from historic Christianity. They are sickened by the man-centered worship of the church today and want to return to the God-centered worship of historic Christianity. The names of the great Reformers, Luther, Calvin, Knox, and many others have once again begun to be revered as those God was pleased to use to restore the great gospel truths of Scripture alone, grace alone, Christ alone, and faith alone to the church. The writings of their godly successors in the Puritan tradition, John Owen, Thomas Goodwin, George Whitefield, yes, and Spurgeon too, have once again begun to be appreciated as treasuries of Bible truth. This is why we say that we are a Baptists with a difference.

from: http://www.reformedreader.org/reformed_baptist.htm

i do not think that the claim that Spurgeon was a reformed baptist is wrong. However he claimed:

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man..."—Charles H. Spurgeon

from the main page of reformed reader

which is the common baptist argument that they are not protestant, not reformed, not evangelical but the remnant church perserved from Acts. it is this argument that makes baptist not wish to be labelled as "reformed baptists". the question is if this claim is historically warranted or wishful thinking.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

What area of the country do you live? I may know of some churches in your area that aren't Reformed Baptists but do preach and proclaim the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus alone as did Spurgeon.

I am in Indiana! North Central part.

 

[mlqurgw]

I am in Indiana! North Central part.

I know of a church in New Castle and one in Greenfield. PM me if you want to contact them.

 

[mlqurgw]

this is the best reformed baptist site i am aware of:
http://www.reformedreader.org/


from: http://www.reformedreader.org/reformed_baptist.htm

i do not think that the claim that Spurgeon was a reformed baptist is wrong. However he claimed:


from the main page of reformed reader

which is the common baptist argument that they are not protestant, not reformed, not evangelical but the remnant church perserved from Acts. it is this argument that makes baptist not wish to be labelled as "reformed baptists". the question is if this claim is historically warranted or wishful thinking.

I guess it depends on which view of Baptist history you hold to. All of the Reformed Baptist I know hold to the English Separatist view which teaches that Baptists came out of the reformation in England. I, while not in the least Landmark, hold to the spiritual kinship view. Which is what your quote of Spurgeon relates. The spiritual kinship view is the one held by most Baptists up until the early to mid 1800's. I should probably go back and read my Baptist histories again in the very near future as this is the second thread I have taken part in that brings it up.
Also there are some other issues I have with Reformed Baptists that I would rather not get into on this forum as it would probably lead to a debate in which I would more than likely offend some here. I hope you will forgive my lack of clarity.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I know of a church in New Castle and one in Greenfield. PM me if you want to contact them.

Greenwood and New Castle are about 1 hour one way each from where I live. Thanks for the help, though. I did start a thread on GARB churches and there are two of those near me.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Dear Disciple,

I can really appreciate and sympathize with your search for a church that would be in line with the Biblical theology of Charles Spurgeon.. the great Baptist/Calvinist preacher of the 19th century.

Have you consulted www.farese.com which has a listing of Baptist churches that preach in accordance with Biblical/Calvinist theology? Also another site is www.founders.org which also has a listing.

Just for encouragement, I did want to pass on this link. It is for the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London.. the church that was formerly pastored by Spurgeon. They provide their preaching services (Sunday morning, evening and Wednesday) online -- at no charge with an archive of six months of preaching.

www.metropolitantabernacle.org

May the Lord bless you as you seek a church home where the Word of God is truly preached in the tradition of Spurgeon and those men of God who came before him.

Grace and peace to you as you seek to do His will..

LittleLambChild

Thank you. Those links will be most helpful!

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Hello Disciple,

I hope you have a better experience with GARB churches than I did.. I visited three of them. None of them were Calvinist. I suggest you ask the pastors straight up.. it will save you time and I fear some disappointment.

Blessings and may the Lord guide you and give you discernment.

LittleLambChild

I'm told that one of the GARB churches in my area, the pastor is a 5 point Calvinist. The other GARB church in my area is in between pastors. Their pastor went on to the lead the state association of GARB.

The first is a very small church, the second larger and fits more our family with children's programs, adult bible studies, etc.

I don't know! There is another church in my area that would fit great. The pastor is a 4 point Calvinist and the church is not too small and not too big. They have a lot going on.

Unfortunately, the pastor and I had a huge falling out a couple of years ago. After attending there a few months, my wife and I considered membership. Before we did, we wanted to be absolutely sure, so we tried a church we had been wanting to try before we ever went to this one. We held off on membershop and wanted to attend the other a few times first. The pastor became upset and basically went off calling us church hoppers and said we had wasted his time, etc. Long story short, we had a big falling out and it stung me a great deal. I have no idea how it effected him.

Recently, the last day or two, I have emailed him and he has suggested a couple of churches that have a reformed theology. He is the one that told me the one GARB pastor is a 5 point Calvinist. He has been helpful and cordial.

I'd have a hard time asking if we were welcome back to his church. He doesn't feel he did anything wrong or that his actions were out of line. I understand I did some things wrong and was out line on some things. I have since explained that to him (a year ago), but he never responded with anything other than an okay. I often would look to him for advice and deeper instruction on biblical study. It stung me to be treated that way by someone who I saw as a mentor.

Anyway, that's where I am. I did not, until recently, start searching for a reformed type church or one with my views as I have just recently come to these views. Since my falling out with him, I have studied a lot more and come to understand my own beliefs more than I ever did. It has made it hard for me to find a church for my family since this area is mostly liberal.

Thanks to all and God Bless!

 

[mlqurgw]

One thing I might point out to you to consider: There are many who hold to the Doctrines of Grace but few whom the the truth of these doctrines hold. They say they believe them but rarely preach them. That is because they fear what it would do to their salary. I can't tell you how many times I have heard it said that if they preached these things they would be thrown out of their churches.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

One thing I might point out to you to consider: There are many who hold to the Doctrines of Grace but few whom the the truth of these doctrines hold. They say they believe them but rarely preach them. That is because they fear what it would do to their salary. I can't tell you how many times I have heard it said that if they preached these things they would be thrown out of their churches.

That's a good point.

I do know firsthand that the 4 pointer I speak of does preach it openly. He claims the 5 point pastor at the GARB church also preaches it openly. Maybe that is why they are such small churhces. 4 pointer is 200, the other around 80-125 members.

I wish there was a straight up Reformed church around here. The only one is the RPC, but I do not agree with infant baptism or the sprnkling issue. Or this shouldn't keep me out of that church altogether should it? There is also the liturgical worship style. Very foreign to me and especially to my family. (My wife grew up in AoG, I've been successful at steering her away from the Pentecostal Movement and she is in line with my views and beliefs now).

Anyway! Frustrations!!

 

[mlqurgw]

That's a good point.

I do know firsthand that the 4 pointer I speak of does preach it openly. He claims the 5 point pastor at the GARB church also preaches it openly. Maybe that is why they are such small churhces. 4 pointer is 200, the other around 80-125 members.

I wish there was a straight up Reformed church around here. The only one is the RPC, but I do not agree with infant baptism or the sprnkling issue. Or this shouldn't keep me out of that church altogether should it? There is also the liturgical worship style. Very foreign to me and especially to my family. (My wife grew up in AoG, I've been successful at steering her away from the Pentecostal Movement and she is in line with my views and beliefs now).

Anyway! Frustrations!!

Well I know it is difficult but I drive 45-50 minutes each way to attend a church that preaches the truth of God. It is worth it to me and I have never had any regrets as to the time spent on the road. I would reccommend the church in New Castle first. I know the pastors of both but the one in New Castle probably preaches more clearly. It is a very small group and could use you.