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Where's the point? I can't find it.

TheFathersDaughter

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Arguing with other Christians about what sin is is like trying to find a baby blue crayon amidst turquoise. And if you own a box of crayons, you know how similar the two colors are. You'll have to check every single on of the 36 in the box, and by then you forget what you were coloring and now you're just frusterated. Trying to argue homosexuality as a sin or not, as we've all noticed, doesn't exactly bring out the best in us (myself included).

Pro-Gay Arguments:

1. You're just generalizing an entire community. I'm guilty of this too. Can you really blame them. Homosexuality isn't like race or gender. It's not a biological thing, it's a mental thing. All attraction is mental. So it's easier to judge because while obviously no one is identical biologically, mentality is something strange. If some people are afraid of people who are different biologically without any disorder, imagine what sort of superiority some people feel over mentality. (It isn't necessarily wrong if you have an open mind to it though).

2. You're just a conservative. So? They have a political standing. Good for them. Should be pin it on them and act like its something bad? There are wicked conservatives, but there are wicked liberals too. The two words shouldn't be used in religion though, let alone as insults.

Anti-Gay Arguments
:

1. This is what the Bible says
. The Bible is not God, and no matter how right the Bible is, God should ALWAYS come first. Christians should learn how to have a relationship with God before they read the Bible. Because humans work in a way where if they don't have any consequence the first time, they'll keep believing it. If you put the Bible as a irrefutable law, then when you pray, that's all you'll hear. You have to have a clear, uninfluenced mind or else you might as well be talking to a wall.

2. If you don't know God, you'll never understand. You can't judge a person on your standings. Remember, Christ dined with sinners of every sort and those sinners had the most faith in him. Remember that children would possess the Kingdom of Heaven even though we regard children as "still learning". They do know God. Where the Pharisees of Jesus' time, the "perfect" men, didn't. Hows that? The most Biblically correct men were in the wrong. I'm not saying we should shove the Bible away because the Bible has the story of Christ, the story of Creation. With it we can better understand God. But understand the Bible doesn't mean you understand God. The only way to truly do that is to listen to Him with an unbiased mind.

Arguments on Both Sides:

1. You can't say it's good/bad because you are/aren't gay. By that logic, I can't say that race doesn't matter because I'm not black. Or more appropriately, I can't say that being an adult gives me more freedom because I'm not an adult. Or adults can't say all teenagers are spoiled because they're not modern teenagers (trends change with the weather it seems like, along with attitudes). This argument is on both sides, and frankly, it's silly. Because if this were the case, the argument would not exist. And next, the big one...

2. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. And here I thought I was the only rebellious, misunderstood teenager. Because I've heard that saying in every chick flick to date. No, I don't get it. But you don't get it. None of us get it. Only God. God gets it and I'm fairly sure He could draw it out on a white board and we still wouldn't get it. BAFRIEND keeps saying we need to take the straight and narrow path. I WISH life in Christ was just a narrow path. It's more like a dark, crooked, tight ropes walk and on one side is rocks and on the other side is sharks. If you try to hold on to your own head you'll loose your balance because you need your arms too balance but if you hold onto the Bible it's heavy and you loose your balance as well. But the Spirit doesn't way anything and that should be where your heart lies.

Truth is, you can't save someone by telling them what is sin. You save someone by telling them what is God. Once they know God, it comes rushing into them on it's own. God's power and wisdom, we can all agree, is greater than humans. So don't you think He'd do a better job teaching them right from wrong?
 

Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Yes, I agree. People should trust in God, not every word of the law.[/SIZE]

And do any bloody thing they want to because "we're not under the law but under grace." There are no hard and fast rules for anything, if it feels good, do it.
 
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dpartlow

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And do any bloody thing they want to because "we're not under the law but under grace." There are no hard and fast rules for anything, if it feels good, do it.
Showing your true colors now aren't you?

The law was a gift from God but you are treating it like it was some undesirable potholder or a mis-sized or ugly shirt you can just return.

God doesn't give inappropriate gifts. He knows whats best and told us so in the law. If we accept it we are all better off.

I'm not saying you don't also have the gift of redemption, but there are gifts in following his law too. Now to tell others that the shirt is mis-sized or ugly when its not risks offending both them and the giver.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]Showing your true colors now aren't you?

The law was a gift from God but you are treating it like it was some undesirable potholder or a mis-sized or ugly shirt you can just return.

God doesn't give inappropriate gifts. He knows whats best and told us so in the law. If we accept it we are all better off.

I'm not saying you don't also have the gift of redemption, but there are gifts in following his law too. Now to tell others that the shirt is mis-sized or ugly when its not risks offending both them and the giver.[/SIZE]

Not me, read my post in context it is pro/homosexuals who claim that, "We are no longer under the law, so the injunction against homosexuality in Leviticus, no longer applies." OTOH I believe that the Levitical injunction is reiterated in the N.T.
 
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MercyBurst

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1. This is what the Bible says. The Bible is not God, and no matter how right the Bible is, God should ALWAYS come first.

The bible is GOD speaking to US. Without a bible, how can we REALLY know about Jesus?

Without a bible, give me the historic evidence that PROOVES Jesus existed, and I will convert every Jesus Myth atheist on the planet.

I have argued with them until ad nauseum. The anecdotal evidence isn't enough. It takes FAITH. Faith apart from the scriptures is vanity, like all the other beliefs that don't rely on the bible scriptures. This includes hiduism, buhdism, islam, etc etc.
 
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gwdboi

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The bible is GOD speaking to US. Without a bible, how can we REALLY know about Jesus?

Without a bible, give me the historic evidence that PROOVES Jesus existed, and I will convert every Jesus Myth atheist on the planet.

I have argued with them until ad nauseum. The anecdotal evidence isn't enough. It takes FAITH. Faith apart from the scriptures is vanity, like all the other beliefs that don't rely on the bible scriptures. This includes hiduism, buhdism, islam, etc etc.

The Divine (God) makes (him/her)self evident in all creation, Bible or no Bible, the Bible just makes the Divine a lot easier to comprehend. Did God exist before the Bible? Yes. The Bible is not as necessary as some may believe.
 
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ReformedChapin

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The Divine (God) makes (him/her)self evident in all creation, Bible or no Bible, the Bible just makes the Divine a lot easier to comprehend. Did God exist before the Bible? Yes. The Bible is not as necessary as some may believe.
I don't get your logic the God existed before the bible therefore the bible is not needed for people to be saved?

Then how do you know WHO saved you?
 
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ReformedChapin

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Truth is, you can't save someone by telling them what is sin. You save someone by telling them what is God. Once they know God, it comes rushing into them on it's own. God's power and wisdom, we can all agree, is greater than humans. So don't you think He'd do a better job teaching them right from wrong?
You cannot understand God if your not God's child. So I think for his true children, they understand.
 
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gwdboi

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I don't get your logic the God existed before the bible therefore the bible is not needed for people to be saved?

Then how do you know WHO saved you?

We throw that phrase "saved" around quite a bit, but I prefer not to think of myself as "saved" from anything rather that I have a relationship with the divine and that is what's important. The Bible is a book that was compiled by men, nature is the expression of the divine, I would rather know the divine personally than vicariously through a book. I am in no way saying that the Bible is useless, what I am saying is that we as christians rely on it way too much and don't think for ourselves. When Jesus told a parable he either A) pointed to people or B) pointed to nature... take the hint.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]We throw that phrase "saved" around quite a bit, but I prefer not to think of myself as "saved" from anything rather that I have a relationship with the divine and that is what's important. The Bible is a book that was compiled by men, nature is the expression of the divine, I would rather know the divine personally than vicariously through a book. I am in no way saying that the Bible is useless, what I am saying is that we as christians rely on it way too much and don't think for ourselves. When Jesus told a parable he either A) pointed to people or B) pointed to nature... take the hint.[/SIZE]

The above is what the "world" says. Below is what God says.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Mat 4:4 But he [Jesus] answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me [Jesus].

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Tim 3:15 and how from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 3:16 Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 3:17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work.​
 
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RMDY

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I believe the entire bible to be inspired by God and that is why I take it seriously. Considering that Jesus died for me, I want to do my best to put anything God considers to be sinful, even if it is contrary to what I believe, out of my life.

"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker." [Galatians 2:17-18] You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature(the flesh), rather, serve one another in love.[Galatians 5:13]So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. [Galatians 5:16-26] Jesus is the true vine, and His Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in Him that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. [John15:1-2] No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Him. He is the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in Him and He in the man, that person will bear much fruit; apart from Jesus you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in him, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.[John15:4-8] As the Father has loved Jesus, so Jesus has loved you. Now remain in His love. If you obey His commands, you will remain in His love, just as He had obeyed His Father's commands and remained in His love. [John15:9-10] The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. [Galatians 5:6]
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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We throw that phrase "saved" around quite a bit, but I prefer not to think of myself as "saved" from anything rather that I have a relationship with the divine and that is what's important. The Bible is a book that was compiled by men, nature is the expression of the divine, I would rather know the divine personally than vicariously through a book. I am in no way saying that the Bible is useless, what I am saying is that we as christians rely on it way too much and don't think for ourselves. When Jesus told a parable he either A) pointed to people or B) pointed to nature... take the hint.
My youth pastor said that Christ is everyone's savior, even non-Christians.

As Christians, we should consider Him our Lord. We're all technically saved. Christians and non-Christians alike. What sets us apart is non-Christians don't accept that Spirit and Christians do.
 
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ReformedChapin

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My youth pastor said that Christ is everyone's savior, even non-Christians.

As Christians, we should consider Him our Lord. We're all technically saved. Christians and non-Christians alike. What sets us apart is non-Christians don't accept that Spirit and Christians do.
If your pastor is teaching universalism, he is a heathen. Sorry to let you know.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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If your pastor is teaching universalism, he is a heathen. Sorry to let you know.

No he's preaching from the same Book you keep throwing at me. The difference is he reads it through God's eyes.

He doesn't have an opinion on homosexuality (mostly to avoid the controversy which turns into anger which turns into hate.) otherwise I'm sure I'd be posting it here.
 
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ReformedChapin

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No he's preaching from the same Book you keep throwing at me. The difference is he reads it through God's eyes.

He doesn't have an opinion on homosexuality (mostly to avoid the controversy which turns into anger which turns into hate.) otherwise I'm sure I'd be posting it here.
No he doesn't considering he isn't teaching with the "book says" through his postmodern eyes.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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No he doesn't considering he isn't teaching with the "book says" through his postmodern eyes.

The Book says Christ came to save us, and that's it. It never said "Christ can't be your Lord". I don't understand what you're trying to do except make him look bad because you don't understand him. But considering he has a DEGREE in the same thing Der Alter preaches, you can't really say he's a heathen.

Thank you for trying so hard to make him look bad though. He appreciates it.
 
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ReformedChapin

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The Book says Christ came to save us, and that's it. It never said "Christ can't be your Lord". I don't understand what you're trying to do except make him look bad because you don't understand him. But considering he has a DEGREE in the same thing Der Alter preaches, you can't really say he's a heathen.

Thank you for trying so hard to make him look bad though. He appreciates it.
There is several assumptions coming to those verses. If you claim Christ you must also renounce sin. You must also be of the Christain faith.

NOT EVERYONE IS SAVED. Jesus is the only way," the book" says it.
 
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TheFathersDaughter

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There is several assumptions coming to those verses. If you claim Christ you must also renounce sin. You must also be of the Christain faith.

NOT EVERYONE IS SAVED. Jesus is the only way," the book" says it.
So Jesus is not everyones savior?

So Christ can pick and choose who gets into heaven?

He didn't come to save everyone?

Because thats what I hear you saying.

Christ is everyone's savior. There are simply those who choose to accept that and those who don't. That is a FACT.
 
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